Securing the Future part 2

Welcome to Free to Learn, a podcast exploring the stories of formerly incarcerated college students. My name is Jason Frank. I'm an Instructional Designer at Santa Fe College, and I'm interested in better understanding how we can create a learning environment that better meets the needs of these students. The first step to good design is listening to the people you're working to support.

We're continuing our conversation with Beth Dodd. If you haven't listened to part one of this interview, I'd recommend going back and listening to that first. Beth's educational journey has been the result of having a clear goal, fierce resolve, and the fortune of key advocates at key moments. She has a lot that she can teach us about how to support some of our most vulnerable students. 

Funding for this program was provided through a grant from Florida Humanities with funds from the National Endowment for the Humanities. Any views, findings, conclusions or recommendations expressed in this program do not necessarily represent those of the Florida Humanities or the National Endowment for the Humanities.

Full transcripts can be found under each episode at https://freetolearn.buzzsprout.com/. 

Transcript

Jason:

Welcome to Free to Learn, a podcast exploring the stories of formerly incarcerated college students. My name is Jason Frank. I'm an Instructional Designer at Santa Fe College, and I'm interested in better understanding how we can create a learning environment that better meets the needs of these students. The first step to good design is listening to the people you're working to support.

We're continuing our conversation with Beth Dodd. If you haven't listened to part one of this interview, I'd recommend going back and listening to that first. Beth's educational journey has been the result of having a clear goal, fierce resolve, and the fortune of key advocates at key moments. She has a lot that she can teach us about how to support some of our most vulnerable students.

Let's get back to the interview.

Now, you mentioned you really loved the library. What did you love about the library?

Beth:

I've just always been a library lover, honestly. When I first got out, I never had a smartphone. Google and everything came out while I was in prison, so I got the little smartphone, I got on Facebook, and one of my first pictures is me at the library. I was so excited. I love books and I love, like anything in the world, it's kind of like Google. I love any question in the world that you have, you can just type into the little computer. There's your answer. And the library is the same way. Anything in the world you want to know, there's a book on it somewhere.

And even not everybody knows this, but if the book's not at your library, you can often request it. So any book in the world, anything in the world you want to know, it's right there. I just love it. I crave information. I love books.

Jason:

Where you think that comes from?

Beth:

My dad.

Jason:

Oh, really?

Beth:

Yeah. Well actually, I have a dad and a stepdad, and they both are big readers. My dad used to take me to the bookstore, and we would go and get books, and then they were used bookstores, so you could take the book back after you read it and then trade it in for money and get more books and then take the book back. So, I've always liked to read.

Jason:

What's a favorite book for yours?

Beth:

Oh gosh, now I'm on the spot.

Jason:

You are on the spot.

Beth:

I went through... This is so dorky, but when I was in prison, I really wanted to make sure that I didn't come out seeming like I was in prison for all that time. So I went through the classics section at the library and I read a ridiculous amount of classics, and I had a pen pal that used to turn me on to books.

And I have to say, some of the Charles Dickens books, I know they're so long and so dorky, but some of them, they were just so good. If you could make it through to the end? I mean, it's effort, but just the twists and turns and everything, I just liked those.

And I really liked, it sounds so stupid because it was in prison, but I liked Crime and Punishment. That was one of my favorites because I loved the way that it followed his mental breakdown from guilt. And he was sick too, so he's got this fever, and I just love the way that he was able to create this internal dialogue as he's just so paranoid, like do people know? Do people not know? What is going on? And you don't really know. I just loved it.

And it sounds so silly because I'm like, "Oh yeah, I'm in prison reading Crime and Punishment," but it was such a good book. I read a couple of his books and then they were just so good.

Jason:

Well, those are great answers. Did you get into any clubs or extracurriculars while you were at Santa Fe?

Beth:

I did not. I saw that they existed and I wanted to, they seemed... Especially, I like to garden and I've always been interested in growing food and not so much flowers, but flowers are good too, but I like the idea of sustainable living and gardening and crafting and stuff like that. And I saw that there was a organic gardening club, and that seemed like something I would really like to do, but I just didn't feel like I had the time to do that.

Like I said, I was going to school part-time, I was working full-time, and I ended up getting myself into just so many strange situations that were taking up a lot of my time, and without getting sidetracked into all my personal drama, but my partner and I were taking care of her nephew for a short period of time, and then we just had a stream of people in our lives that we had to help out in emergencies.

So making sure I could take care of myself and making sure I could pass my classes, and then sometimes taking care of these extra people, time for a class or a club or something, it just didn't seem attainable.

And I mean, some of them, I kind of got the feeling, and maybe it's just all in my head, but I kind of felt like maybe if I went there, I would be the oldest one there and it would just be awkward, you know? I got the impression maybe it was for people that had just graduated high school and here I am, this old person showing up to hang out with them. So I don't know. It didn't seem like something that was for me, but maybe it could have been, and I just didn't try. But I didn't do it.

Jason:

When you were at Santa Fe, did you buy any college swag? Did you have any t-shirts or sweatshirts or anything like that?

Beth:

I didn't. Money was really tight, so if it was not edible and it was not a bill, I did not spend money on it. I mean, every once in a while, I'd go and buy a snack from the bookstore or something when I had to stay all day. But I didn't have money to spend on anything that wasn't necessary.

I do have Santa Fe sweatpants that Bill gave me, but that's the only Santa Fe swag that I have. And I mean, it's unfortunate. It's not lack of pride. I did love it here, but it's just lack of cash.

Jason:

So when you were going to school, how important was it for you to let other people know that you were attending Santa Fe?

Beth:

Not at all.

Jason:

Not at all?

Beth:

Yeah.

Jason:

No, it's-

Beth:

I mean, again, I wasn't really socializing. I literally went to school and work. So I mean, my school knew I was at school and my work knew I was at school and there was really nobody else in my life.

I'm getting to the point now, like I said, I'm more financially secure, so I have expendable money that I can go and do things that aren't immediately beneficial. But back then, I really was just focused on work and school. That was the only thing in my life and nothing else mattered.

Jason:

When you were at Santa Fe, did you take advantage of any of the services that the college offered? Any?

Beth:

I can't really think of any. And again, it might have just been me not knowing things were available. Now that I'm a little older and I've had time to look, I realize there's a health clinic here. I didn't realize that back then. There's counseling service. I didn't really look into it that much. I literally was just zeroed in on this is what I need to do to pass my class, this is what I need to do to pay my bills, and absolutely nothing else was in my vision.

And I probably missed out on a lot of things, but I really only cared that I did not become homeless and I did not fail classes. That's all I cared about.

Jason:

Thinking back, is there anything that the college could have done to to support you better? Anything that you would have wanted?

Beth:

I think maybe when I was enrolling, if somebody could have just talked to me maybe that first day, and I know I keep coming back to that whole short semester thing, but if anybody would've just told me, "Hey, let me just give you an overview. When you see a semester with letters after it, this is what it means."

All these buildings, I didn't ever look in any of the other buildings, so I know that there's a little map or whatever, but if somebody would've been like, "Hey, these other things are not classrooms. These are actually places you can go and this is what happens in those buildings." Maybe just a 30-minute introduction to what else there is here besides classrooms because I just didn't realize. I saw that there were things going on, but I just didn't... They just weren't on my radar. I just didn't know. I just didn't know.

I didn't have any experience. I didn't know to go looking for them. I didn't know to ask for them. I just kind of literally said, "Oh, my class is in G10. That's the only place I'm going to go on campus for the rest of the semester. G10. Period. Back to the bus stop to go home."

Jason:

So you never went to any sports games or any plays or anything? Nope?

Beth:

No, I don't think so. Not until after I graduated.

Jason:

Oh, okay.

Beth:

Yeah, I think I went to a couple after I graduated. But I mean, just nothing. I can't even stress how scared I was that I was going to fail when I got out. I was so worried that I was not going to be able to take care of myself. That was the only thing on my mind: pay bills, finish school, period.

Jason:

So what kind of student would you describe yourself as?

Beth:

Definitely driven, a little anxious. I mean, even now, every single semester I tell myself, "I don't know if I'm going to pass this one. This might be my last semester before I'm just going to have to call it quits." But then every semester I get an A or a B.

So I mean, clearly, it's just like I said, it's terror of failure. But I do my assignments, I do them on time. I am often... So I don't mind talking to strangers, so I'm often the one to ask a question in class or introduce myself to a classmate or engage them in something. Especially as I've gotten older and I'm a little bit more confident, I don't mind reaching out and saying, "Hey, do you know how to do this assignment?"

So I would say I'm focused and interactive, you know? Maybe not so much my first couple years. I was more just focused, but now I'm more comfortable just asking questions, starting discussions. But number one thing is focused. I absolutely just... I have to keep going and I cannot fail.

Jason:

Has any of the technology been a barrier for you?

Beth:

So luckily when I was growing up, my dad always had a computer, so I was pretty comfortable working on computers. I didn't have that fear that some people have. I know if you didn't grow up with computers, you're always worried the button that you press might be the one that kills it. And I am not afraid to press any buttons. And now that there's Google, I'm willing to Google, "How do you get your computer to do this?" Or, "Where do you get this program?" So I was really lucky to catch onto the technology quickly.

I don't think that there's been anything... I will say that digital textbooks have been really troublesome, that I haven't found a good way to utilize those. My new school, it's mostly digital textbooks and I've really struggled with that.

But other than that, everything seems to be pretty straightforward. It took some getting used to on Canvas, learning where all the buttons were and how to submit things, but it seemed to be pretty intuitive for me. I've been really lucky to just be technology savvy.

Jason:

You're taking online classes now. Did you do any online classes while you were at Santa Fe?

Beth:

I did do some. I think I did some. Maybe they were hybrid. I don't remember. So not during my AA. I think everything I did for the AA was in person. But then when I graduated, I started a Bachelor's in Organizational Management and I got a few classes in there, and I want to say several of those were hybrid. And it might have been maybe the last couple classes of my AA were hybrid because I was working more full-time then and it was convenient for me.

I don't think I did any completely online here though. I think that I always had at least one or two days in the classroom.

Jason:

But now it's all online?

Beth:

Completely.

Jason:

And so how would you compare or contrast your experience online with face-to-face?

Beth:

I actually prefer... So that's hard because what I like about online is I can do it at nighttime when I get off of work and I can do it on the weekends. That is extremely helpful because then I don't have the anxiety of how am I going to get to class on time?

I did take some night classes. They were 5:30 to 7:30 here, so I was able to work all day and then come here at night. But even that, I was starving by the end of it. And then because I had to leave a little bit early, I had to extend my work schedule on the other days and I was working 12-hour days. It was just... The in-person, I really like being able to just have that conversation with the teacher and the other students, but what you pay and just the scheduling nightmare and just the physical struggle of getting there and back and coordinating dinner and getting home and all that, it's not worth it. I would rather give up that aspect of class and go only when I have time.

So if I get off work at 5:30, it's fine. I'll just log on later. If I get off at 7:30, it's fine. I'll just log on later. If I have to spend all weekend, it doesn't matter. But I lose being able to ask the teacher a question when I come up with it.

Especially in these harder classes, it's so nice to just say, "Hey, I have no idea what you're talking about. Could you repeat that? Explain it in a different way?" And that option's not available online. You can send in an email, maybe they'll reply in a week. By then, the homework was due. And it's kind of back to the course credit by examination. It's kind of like you just do the work and hope for the best now.

It's a trade-off. You either get the convenience of working when you are available or you get the benefit of being able to ask questions as they come up.

Jason:

Yeah. So what have been some of your favorite classes?

Beth:

I really liked accounting. So I had a teacher here at Santa Fe and I liked him so much. And accounting seems like such a boring class, but it was fun to me and I really enjoyed... I think I took two semesters of it when I was doing that Bachelor's for Organizational Management, and I really enjoyed that and...

Jason:

What was it about that instructor?

Beth:

I liked his sense of humor. I was, again, one of the older students in the class and sometimes he would just tell jokes and none of the other students would get it, but I would understand it. And so we'd have this shared like, "I get where you're coming from." It was kind of nice. It was kind of being in the old person's club in school. I got it while everybody else was just sitting there like, "What is he talking about?"

He was just kind of sarcastic, but either the jokes weren't really that funny and only I thought they were funny or nobody else got them. I don't know what it was, but I just got a kick out of it.

Jason:

So what do you think makes for a good college instructor?

Beth:

Willingness to meet people where they're at. I've had some teachers that I am eternally grateful that... Towards the last few years I was going to Santa Fe, my personal life was just a disaster. And I've had several teachers where I would just tell them, "Hey, things at home are insane right now. I am doing my best," and having the willingness for them to work with me and maybe let me turn in assignments later or show my work, just being understanding because a lot of people in a community college, they're not there because everything is perfect. It's a step to university sometimes, it's a step to a certificate. It's not this ideal situation of where you graduate and then go off to university and get some great job.

For some reason, there is a need that people have that bring them to the community college. And you have to understand there's other things going on that bring people here. We're not just going to school because it's the next step. There's other stuff going on.

I don't know how to explain it, but there's either not the money to go to university or there was not the time. Maybe they're doing part-time, or maybe they're adults coming back for classes to get their career leveled up. There's so many different situations. At the university, the situation is, well, they graduated high school, but here, the situation could be anything. So having a teacher that understands everybody's got stuff going on is really, really helpful.

Jason:

So you've talked about this, it's called the Zen?

Beth:

It was The Gateless Gate Zen Center.

Jason:

Okay, the Zen Center, as being pretty important. How integral was that to your success at college and to your success at reintegrating?

Beth:

I don't know if it was important once I got into college, but getting started, it was huge because that was part of my reason for coming here instead of going back to Atlanta, is that I just thought, well, it would be good if I went somewhere where people already knew the steps because he literally drove me to the college and took me to the enrollment, I don't remember even what it's called, but the registration area and helped me sign up.

And I mean, I'm not saying that I'm slow, but I'm not sure that I would've just thought to do all of those things on my own. I don't know if I would've gotten overwhelmed and been like, "Oh, I don't know what to do now." And certainly, I would've never known where to download that criminal history thing. He had to help me do that. And I think having someone who had been through it before was extremely important. Even though he himself had not been through it, he knew exactly what steps I needed to take in order to get where I was going.

And once I got going, I was good. But knowing where to start, having someone that knew where to start was extremely important, who knew where to look for the documents I needed, what office to go to, what paperwork I needed to fill out. I would not have known that just instinctively.

Jason:

Yeah, that's a great point. So in terms of post-college, post-university, in your mind, what are the characteristics of a good job or career? What are you hoping for or aspiring for in that area?

Beth:

I think what would make a job good is not having to worry paycheck to paycheck. Not being terrified of getting sick and worry that, "Oh, if I get a cold and I have to call out, am I still going to be able to pay rent?"

Right now, I have a job that has great health benefits and PTO, and I mean, that has allowed me to feel like I can finally start living an actual life that doesn't just involve school and work. I bought tickets to a concert or I was able to go visit my family for a week, have paid time-off. Paid time-off is huge.

When I first got out, if you call in sick, you don't get paid. And if you actually are sick and you have to go to the doctor, well, that costs money. Not only are you not getting paid, but now it costs money too and God help you. I got mono, I want to say, a couple years after I got out, and I missed work for a week. It was devastating and I was still sick and I had to go back to work because I couldn't live without working.

So I think that what makes the job good is knowing that no matter what happens, that you're secure, you're still going to be able to live in your house, you're still going to be able to eat food, you're still going to be able to buy dog food. I don't want to sound like I'm... It's nice to be able to go to the grocery store and just put stuff in the cart because it looks good and not have a running list in your mind like, "Oh, that was $5." And then, "Okay, I'm adding another dollar," and then, "Well, if I add this, then I'm going to have to maybe cut back on gas." It's nice to just know that I can afford to be alive. That is nice.

So I'd say that's definitely what I look for in a good job. And I mean, that's my goal. And the reason I'm still going to school is because I hear this thing called retirement would be really nice, and I missed 12 and a half years of working. Even Social Security, I haven't been paying into Social Security. So I absolutely have to make up for it from with my own cash.

So having a job that I feel like I won't be working when I'm 80 is a good job, having a job where I maybe could retire at some point and actually have what's considered the good life, take vacations, buy presents for people at Christmas, things like that.

Jason:

Yeah. So do you have any other personal goals?

Beth:

I mean, as far as life goes?

Jason:

Yeah.

Beth:

I hit a lot of... My main goals were to graduate from school, buy a house, get a secure job. And I've done that and I've wanted to start a family and I have not done so well at that for other reasons because it turns out it's just not as easy as you think it's going to be.

I would like to do more traveling. I was lucky when I was younger, my dad was in the military, so I was able to see a lot of the United States just by visiting my dad. I even lived overseas. I lived in Japan for two and a half years, I think it was. So I'd like to see more of the world. So I mean, that is a goal. It's not super important. It's not what I'm waking up every day and working towards, but it's kind of something floating off like, "Oh, if I put enough away, that would be nice."

I think right now, my goals from here on out is just to actually make time to enjoy life. I've hit a level where I'm comfortable, but now it would just be nice to take my nose out of the books and step away from work and actually go do things now. So it's not one specific goal, it's just kind of a general goal: live life now.

Jason:

Yeah. So do you consider yourself a part of any kinds of communities?

Beth:

I mean, I'm gay, so I guess that's a community, but I don't... I'm a vegetarian, so that's a pretty strong community there. I'm not vegan, so I don't quite fit into that club, but I kind of get along with everybody. So I wouldn't say that I'm just looking for a certain community to hang out with. I've got a wide variety of friends that I've met at different jobs that you wouldn't necessarily think that we would hang out with each other, but we do because we've met each other, we find common ground.

But I would say that the LGBTQ community is probably one that I typically identify with when I go somewhere or I go to a lot of vegetarian festivals, like the Veg Fest and stuff like that. Usually, if I can find somebody who's vegetarian, we have a lot to talk about because I like to cook, I like to garden.

And then I recently discovered Reddit, which I didn't... I knew about Facebook when I was in prison. Everybody talks about Facebook, but nobody really talked about Reddit. And there are so many communities on there. Oh my god, it's so much better than Facebook because I don't know, I feel like it's easier to find really personalized areas of Reddit easier than it is on Facebook.

So I'm on these groups called Breaddit, people that like to bake bread, or gardening groups and it's quilting groups and sewing groups. I really like that. So I've got a lot of communities on there that I'm pretty active, posting pictures and comments and stuff like that. But in real life, I really just get along with everybody. I just like people, really.

Jason:

So how do you see yourself growing and learning after college?

Beth:

I'd like to stop.

Jason:

You'd to stop growing and learning?

Beth:

Yeah! I would like to take a break from all of that learning.

I've been in school for the last 10 years, every semester. I did take a little break. So when COVID hit, I just had to take a break from that. And we had some kids living with us at the time when COVID hit, so I was suddenly working online, and then doing online school for those two kids, and then doing my online classes. After that, I needed a break. So I want to say I was out for about a year or so.

But I mean, other than that, I've been taking classes almost continuously since I got out. And I really look forward to the day that the classes stop. I really do. And not so much the classes. I do enjoy learning, but I don't like homework looming over me. After a long day at work, I do not want to come home and do homework. It's so old. I'm so over it.

But maybe independently learning more, like I really crafting and gardening and stuff like that. So I wouldn't say that that is... It is educational.

Jason:

It absolutely is.

Beth:

But it's not as structured as doing homework every day for years. So I would say I would like to move into growing and learning on my hobbies. I want to focus more on my hobbies and not my job.

Jason:

So when we were talking last week, you talked about reaching out to colleges and the lack of response that you got. Could you talk a little bit about that?

Beth:

Yeah, that was really a nightmare. So it's very hard to get any information at all in prison to start with because it's not like there's an internet to get on there. Everything is pen and paper, sending out envelopes with a stamp and hoping that someone replies. And sometimes I could ask someone in my family or my friends, like, "Hey, will you print me out the addresses of some schools that have this?" And they'd send you a piece of paper and you'd send...

Let me back up. I was really interested in architectural engineering when I first decided that I wanted to go back to school and I had this path figured out. When I was in the drafting class, I learned about something called architectural engineering, and it just sounded really cool. And in my head, what would be involved was you're making the bones of these buildings and I don't really care what the buildings look like, so I'm not really interested in architecture, but I am interested in how the buildings work.

I thought that that would be what an architectural engineer did, so I had some friends and family look up schools that offer architectural engineering, and it's not really very popular at all. There's only maybe six schools in the whole country that have it. So I wrote to all of them and most of them ignored me. But there was one teacher at Illinois Institute of Technology that answered me back.

And so the general questions I was asking is like, "Hey, I'm in prison, but when I get out, I would like to go to school. I'm interested in this major, what should I do to prepare myself so that when I can get out, I can just enroll and start moving?" And he actually gave me suggestions of classes that I should focus on. He told me when I came to the campus, to come find him. He helped me figure out what I needed to do next. He was so sweet and so helpful. And I still write to him. He's on my little LinkedIn and I check in with him every six months or a year or so.

And I was just so grateful to get that one response because you're already fighting with the idea that you don't deserve anything else. Once you get to prison, it's pretty clear that you don't really deserve to keep going. And when nobody replies to your letters and nobody replies to your questions, it kind of reinforces that idea that you are not a part of this world anymore. You're going to be over there, you're going to stay over there, and when you get out, we're going to keep you over there and maybe we'll just send you back to prison.

So having someone take me seriously and take, I don't know, maybe it took him 20 minutes to write the letter? And I mean, he had to mail it so that's an extra step, but just having someone have a little bit of compassion and understanding, hey, I am trying. I'm doing the best I can. It was a pretty big deal that I got that one response. But the rest were pretty telling too. They made just as big of an impact as the one letter I got back.

I don't even know if he realized it when he wrote the letter. I don't know if he was just, "Oh boy, I got a request. I'm just going to reply." I don't know if he thought of it as his job to just reply or if he thought he was being nice to me, but it was just such a big deal to me.

Speaker 1:

It'd be interesting to know, wouldn't it? I mean, maybe he had someone in his life who had... Or maybe he had some personal experience where he recognized that that would be important thing to do, but who knows?

Beth:

I don't know.

Speaker 1:

But the impact of something like that, because it's affirming.

Beth:

It really was. I mean, because getting a letter back kind of made it seem like, oh, this person believes that I could do this. This person believes that I am capable of-

Speaker 1:

Taking you seriously.

Beth:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Beth:

And I actually did everything that he suggested. I'm in engineering school right now. You know?

Jason:

So is there anything else that you want to talk about? Anything that was particularly meaningful to you as you've gone through your education and anything that you want people to know about your experience?

Beth:

I would say that one thing that was a bit surprising, when I was in prison, people talk and maybe people just make things up just to have something to talk about. But I always heard, "Oh, when you get out, there's going to be all these scholarships and opportunities because you've been in prison." I didn't find any of those. Maybe I didn't look in the right places, but I didn't see any extra grants for women coming out of prison. And that was part of the reason I had to do school part-time because I had to work. Besides the Pell Grant, which I'm pretty sure goes to everybody with a low income.

It would've been nice if those things were real. Maybe they were never real? I don't know. It would've been nice though if there actually was a scholarship for people coming out of prison that could cover books or something, some kind of help.

And I know that you guys were talking about possibly starting a resource center, and I guess when you first brought it up, I was thinking, "Oh, this is a club," and I just thought I personally wouldn't have gone to a club, but I wasn't thinking about it as maybe someone telling me when I registered, "Hey, that building over there has an office in it. And there's people in there that..." Because there's so many things that you don't think about when you first get out that you don't even know are going to be obstacles, like nobody wants to rent an apartment to a felon. That's not something I considered when I got out. I'm not going to be able to find somewhere to live.

And luckily for me, I came to the Zen Center and we ended up extending the lease personally, we took it over and stayed there. But when I left there and tried to find an apartment, nobody would rent to me. I wasn't prepared for that. And nobody would hire me and nobody... There was just so many things I ran into that I just wasn't expecting. Some warning would've been nice, you know? Or maybe even some suggestions like, "Hey, these people don't mind if you're a felon. These people will hire you or these people will rent you a room."

I think that maybe that resource group, if somehow when you come in, someone could explain to you, "This is not just a social club, this is actually going to help you," that would've been good. It would've been nice to have a little bit more help.

And I don't want to... I mean, everybody needs money, but I desperately needed money. I was struggling so much when I first got out because you don't think about it. But most of you, not being in prison, when you get out of high school and you go to college or whatever, you have the clothes that you had in high school. I didn't have anything. I didn't have shoes. I didn't have socks. You build these things up over your lifetime that I just didn't have. So everything was just such a big deal to get, and everything costs money and I just didn't have it.

And it's hard to explain to people, "No, I literally only have one pair of shoes and I really can't afford to get more. I can't." And now I realize that there's a clothes closet here I didn't know about.

I think maybe if there was just some way that someone could explain, if you see that someone is signing up for their first class, maybe if you could just get a 30-minute session with someone saying, "Hey, yeah, these are what these things are for and this is how you use them, and this is maybe what you're going to be looking for and this is how you find it," just something because I mean, I made it, and I'm appreciative and it worked for me, but it certainly could have been easier.

Jason:

When we were talking last week, you mentioned that you haven't seen very many success stories of people once they get out of prison, right?

Beth:

That is right, yeah.

Jason:

What do you think are the main factors that have contributed to your success?

Beth:

Stubbornness on my end. I mean, luckily I do have... I don't have any family here in Florida, but I do have supportive family. They don't have a lot, they're not sending me cash all the time or anything, but they are supportive and they always tell me, "Oh, well, you're going to succeed," or, "You'll figure it out," or, "We have faith in you." So knowing that other people think that I'm capable has been extremely helpful. And it does motivate me. Maybe some things are going terrible, but everybody believes that I'll come through, so I'll probably come through. It kind of gives me that extra motivation.

I don't know what it is. Maybe... I don't know how to say it. I'm pretty resourceful. I noticed in other people that I know that sometimes when they hit a roadblock, they just stop. But there's something in my personality that I'm constantly looking for a way around, constantly looking for another solution. So that's been, I think, a big reason why I've been able to succeed because every time I hit a roadblock, my first thought is not like, "Oh, this is the end." My first thought is, "All right, how am I going to get around this? How am I going to get through this? How do I solve this problem?"

And being open with people, being willing to talk to other people. I've gotten a lot of help by just letting people know, "Hey, I went to prison, this or that," and sometimes they'll recommend somewhere or something. So I've been really lucky that I have encountered the right people at the right time, and it's opened up opportunities. One of my first real jobs is because a friend of a friend knew a position, so I think being open with people has been really helpful.

But I don't really know what's causing other people to succeed, but I do know in the 12 and a half years that I was in prison, I saw a lot of people come back four or five times. And the reason I saw for that is when they went home, they were going back to places where everyone was still doing the same thing they were doing when they went to prison because they didn't have a community to go to when they got out that was not full of people headed back to prison.

So having that, that Zen Center, even though it closed shortly after I got out, having that place to go where people were focused on putting me on the right path, that helped me. And I know for a fact that it has worked against other people. I saw a lot of people just come back over and over again, and even people that seemed like they really had it together while they were in prison. But when you think about it, all of these things have been taken away from you, and you can focus on moving forward while you're in prison, but when you go home and you go back to your family that is also doing drugs or whatever, it's hard to be that one person trying to move forward in a group full of people that aren't.

So I mean, I think when people aren't succeeding, it's just that they have nowhere to turn. And I don't want to say like, "Oh gosh, we should all just let a prisoner move in with us," but they need help. People need help, and they need to be okay if they screw up too.

I don't know. It's hard because there's not really a perfect answer. I think I just got lucky. I just have a good combination of stubbornness and support that a lot of people don't have. It's just a mix of landing in the right place at the right time. And maybe if I'd gone to Atlanta, I'd be back in prison. You never know. It could just be that I landed at the very perfect time.

But I know that lack of support and community is a bigger reason why a lot of people don't succeed.

Jason:

Again, I want to thank Beth for coming in to talk with us and for sharing her insights on what made her success possible.

Free To Learn was made possible by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities and Florida Humanities and generous support from Santa Fe College's Center for Applied Ethics and the Humanities. This episode was produced by Ann Tebow and Lex Shelton. Thanks for listening.