Whatever It Takes part 1

When a person understands what education can do for them, when they understand the opportunities it opens, and its power to change lives, they will move heaven and earth to be able to pursue it. In this episode, we’ll be talking with John Wise who is currently studying data science at Indiana University. He was also briefly a student at Santa Fe College. John’s story, in many ways, is about his determination to do whatever it took to pursue his education both in and out of prison. While his journey is not without setbacks and frustrations, his resolve never wavered. 

Funding for this program was provided through a grant from Florida Humanities with funds from the National Endowment for the Humanities. Any views, findings, conclusions or recommendations expressed in this program do not necessarily represent those of the Florida Humanities or the National Endowment for the Humanities.

Full transcripts can be found under each episode at https://freetolearn.buzzsprout.com/. 

Transcript

Jason:

Welcome to Free to Learn, a podcast exploring the stories of formerly-incarcerated college students. When a person understands what education can do for them, when they understand the opportunities it opens and its power to change lives, they will move heaven and earth to be able to pursue it. In this episode, we'll be talking with John Wise, who's currently studying data science at Indiana University. He was also briefly a student at Santa Fe College. John's story, in many ways, is about his determination to do whatever it took to pursue his education, both in and out of prison. While his journey is not without setbacks and frustrations, his resolve never wavered. My name is Jason Frank. I'm an instructional designer at Santa Fe College, and I'm interested in better understanding how we can create a learning environment that better meets the needs of these students. The first step in good design is listening to the people you're working to support, so let's hear what John has to say.

John, if you could introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

John:

Yeah. My name's John Wise. I was incarcerated for a very long time, and I just recently was released, almost two years ago. While I was incarcerated, I was incredibly fortunate to have access to higher education while I was still in prison. My initial exposure to higher education was almost accidental, something that I almost considered something that happened to me. Thereafter, I became involved with education while in prison, so involvement with GED programs, and I was thereafter able to align myself to participate in higher education programs, and that was an incredible experience. Since I've been released, I've been continuing to work on higher education for myself as well as doing work to help increase access to higher education for those who are still currently incarcerated.

Jason:

Okay. Thank you. So we're going to start kind of talking about the process for deciding to engage with higher ed. And so as we're having this conversation, we're looking at really the factors that help people to make decisions about how to pursue higher education. So you had just mentioned that it was almost accidental. So tell me about the programs that were offered for you, where you were incarcerated, how you got involved in those programs.

John:

Absolutely. So I think it's pretty important to say that the very long time that I was incarcerated was I had a 22-year sentence. Of that, I had to do 18 years and nine months. I went in when I was 18 years old. So with 18 years under my belt, 22 years ahead of me in prison was inconceivable in a very real sense, and I was also very young and had not a lot of skills to deal with what was before me. So I got in a lot of trouble for my first nine years in prison. Not necessarily administrative trouble, because I was really skilled at not getting in trouble with the administration, and they're pretty lazy about actually paying attention to what happens in prisons. But nevertheless, I got in a lot of trouble. The first nine years incarcerated were... There were a lot.

But one day I was in the library and the institution itself had been experiencing a lot of problems, a lot of lockdowns, a lot of time on my bunk. The programs that were available to me at that time were nothing. I went in with a GED, they had a GED program there, but that was the only beneficial program that was offered that had any kind of legitimacy. The programs that were also on paper as being offered at that institution did not exist. So on paper, on the website, there was a masonry program, a carpentry program. Heck, they're probably still up on the website and they're not there. They did have there was a

GED program, and I think some drug and alcohol treatment that was on paper for people to go to if they needed it on paper that they were going to one, but nobody took it seriously.

So I'm in the library in this context, and I stumble across a book on... What was the first book? It was Physics for Scientists and Engineers, and it was a donated college textbook. Nearby local college books who were just donated a box of textbooks to the library. So I saw it and I liked the pictures, and I thought that what it was talking about was interesting, and so I stole it and I took it back to the dormitory and I couldn't do any of it. So two weeks later, I managed to get myself back to the library again, and I saw another book and I was like, "Well, if I knew some math, I could start working in this book." So I took a college algebra and trigonometry book, took it back to the dorm and I couldn't make it through the prerequisite chapter. I just couldn't do it.

And two weeks later, when I found myself in the library, again, we could only go every two weeks, I found another textbook. It was a donated high school algebra text from like 1953. The previous owner was in Puerto Rico, because you can write in the front of the book. So she was a young Puerto Rican, and she wrote all in the book, and I went right through right after her and wrote all through the book as well. I did that book cover to cover. And then I went back and did that college algebra book. Then I went and did a pre-calculus and trigonometry book, then calculus. And then I've been doing textbooks a lot. I never did managed to get my hands back on that physics book. But I've done some physics work, done some chemistry, done any kind of textbook I could find laying around while I was still inside.

Also, I got really excited doing statistics work, and I didn't have a calculator at the time, so I was using tables, like algorithmic tables and trigonometric tables to do my work. And in order to gain access to a calculator, it would help me a lot, I decided to get involved with the education department when I became a tutor and I got a calculator. Man, it was amazing. But also, being a tutor was an incredible experience. So I taught GED, mostly math, because that was the biggest struggle back in the old GED, 2014, prior to the big change. I did that for about a year and a half before I was able to transfer to another institution that offered supposedly... Is this too much detail?

Jason:

No, this is great.

John:

Okay. So my involvement in the education department allowed me to acquire what's called a ITA transfer, inmate teaching assistant transfer, as an institutional need. It's kind of like how we get paid to do that work because there's no paycheck for being incarcerated, working anything, essentially. Some jobs get pennies, the vast majority of work inside does not. And so the way that ITAs, inmate teaching assistants, get paid is they get transferred.

I heard that there was an AutoCAD program at a facility down by Daytona Beach called Tomoka, and that's what I wanted at that time. I thought that that would be the most beneficial program for me as far as getting out with a vocation. So I transferred. I used my ITA transfer. You only get once to go to that facility. Got there and found out that program wasn't there either, it was just on paper. They did have some AutoCAD work that I could get involved with, but I had to enroll in a faith and character-based program in order to get access to that program.

I did end up eventually participating in an AutoCAD class at that facility, but that was about a year and a half after I got there, and it was a program or a class that I actually ended up teaching. It wasn't for any credit, it wasn't for any kind of legitimate credential, but it was a couple of us sitting around with access to that software, and really delving into what we could do with it, and that was awesome. However,

while I was also at the education department at that facility, I became aware that the Second Chance Pell initiative had begun, and that that program was going to be started at Columbia Correctional Institution, which is, by the way, one of the worst prisons in Florida, in as much as it is considered by the inmate population, by the incarcerated population.

Inmate is a word that I do try to refrain from using intentionally. By the incarcerated population, that facility is considered one of the worst, in that it is one of the most violent, it is also one of the worst as far as the pressure that the staff in the correctional facility puts on the population. Nevertheless, that was a for-credit college program that was offering an associates degree. I had to go. And when I got there, the experience was absolutely amazing. Being in the college program did insulate us from a lot of the trouble that was at that facility. However, being in a college program there was also kind of exposing us to a lot of various problems in different ways as well.

Altogether, being in the college program there with so many of my peers isolated from the general prison experience, and more than anything, just together for that long a time, that's something that is unheard of in a carceral setting. That we were able to get to know each other over the course of two years and understand that we have the opportunity to be together this long. We were really able to build relationships, and that was an experience not only in a carceral setting, but in an educational setting, that it was unlike any other. I have a lot of really critical things to say about that program as well, but it was an amazing experience for me.

Jason:

Well, let's talk about that program specifically. So you talked about the community and the opportunity. And so besides that sense of community, what were the things that you really appreciated about that program?

John:

The opportunity that we had to actually engage with higher education structure to understand what college is, how it works, what a credit is, how to navigate through it, how to think about what my potential is and how I can use education to hone my skills, to contribute to myself and my community in a positive way. And seeing a course list or a potential path to a degree as a means of acquiring the ability to actually exist in the world independently from the support of others, and also in a way that not only benefits myself, but my family, my community. Thinking through where I'm at, seeing the potential that exists in this opportunity, and working towards that is something that I'd never had the ability to do before.

A lot of people who are incarcerated have had horrible experiences with the education system. I dropped out when I was in 10th grade. And coming back to it as an adult with an understanding of... One thing I said in my speech is that experiencing powerlessness really can attune you to the truth that is in the statement that, "Knowledge is power." So that. Also, in engaging with higher education, and not just for a vocation, but engaging with higher education, you begin to learn more about the context of the world that you live in, and you can place yourself in it in a way that, excuse me, can make sense to where you're actually have tools to understand the world that you live in, and you begin to... Communication skills are amazing to have when you're talking to other people, but they're also useful in talking to yourself and clarifying and just gaining skills to become a better person.

Jason:

What surprised you about the college experience, what was unexpected about that?

John:

So we come into this understanding of our ability and place in the world and the potential that we have that's Not true. Specifically for me, it was not true. But then I think that what's been so impactful for me or just surprising is the way that a little bit of knowledge and skill can build on itself to where you're able to use that knowledge and skill to gain new knowledge and more skill, to where it's a feedback that it can really transfigure a person altogether.

Jason:

Yeah, in education, sometimes we use the word scaffolding, right? So you build the scaffold and then you are able to build on top of that. And yeah, these frameworks and foundations are really critical. So you mentioned you had some criticisms of the program. What were the obstacles that you faced when you were in it?

John:

So it is very much still a college program in prison. And the prison administration really makes an effort to keep that forefront in your mind. The administration in that program and the prison have come to a agreement, a formal agreement, that they refer to the incarcerated students as student inmates. So they're student inmate so-and-so, and when they refer to them, they're student inmates. That's a really subtle distinction from the perspective of somebody who's administering the program. But for an incarcerated person, the inmate part is a big deal. So one, it aligns the program, the goals, the outcomes, the methods, all together, the whole context of the operation under a carceral structure.

So the narrative is you're in prison because you're a bad person, or you did something bad. You might be an okay person, but you did something bad. Okay, people do bad things sometimes, but you're either okay or you're bad. But you're here to spend time on working on whatever it is that's wrong with you. This is part of that work that we've gained these ability to give you a higher education program. It's for you to fix what is wrong or maybe arm you to where you can get a job, if that is the only goal that we have for you, that's our highest expectation. The benchmark for the quality of these programs is still, in a lot of circles, recidivism. Do these programs help people coming back from prison? And that's just so awful. If we considered recidivism as a benchmark for the quality of this place, or even just like we're looking at the success of our students by how many of them don't go to prison, that really can affect the way that the program is run, the degrees that are offered.

So I was fortunate in that I could take an AA degree. That degree was not offered to the cohort that came after me. I don't know what they were offered, I think it was business administration. That was really nice of them to offer them that. The other option that was available to me other than an AA, it was a wastewater treatment degree. I think it was environmental technology, but it was a wastewater degree. They were arming them to work as wastewater plant managers, and that's a great job that pays, but it also says a lot about what you feel is appropriate for people who are incarcerated to be studying, and why you're giving them that education. So everything that I talked about about the value of a higher education is not being caught through that lens of administering the program.

Another problem that I have or another criticism I have of that program being administered under a carceral structure, is it really hampers the resources that are available to those. So being in a higher education and prison program is fabulous in that you're allowed access to actually journal articles and textbooks, and you can go and read the JSTOR things on this or go look at the EBSCO and delve into these subjects in ways that are detailed and rigorous and structured and really learn things. But being in

a carceral structure limits your access to actually being able to engage with the material, no matter how interested you are in it.

I went to a higher education conference up in Denver, and one of the sessions that was being run, it was a program up in Minnesota or something, but they were so proud that they had resolved this issue of access to resources for those who need to write papers. Their solution was they tell them what to write the papers on, and they bring them in the research. So they're telling them what their papers are on, they're going and doing the research for them, which really undermines a lot of why... And then they're actually just bringing them that, and this is what you write on. So that's a big problem that I have with the carceral structure altogether.

But that's not the biggest problem I have with a higher education program in prison. So the biggest problem I have is, I think this is going to be best highlighted through a small story. A classmate of mine was doing pretty good. He's struggling in school. He had a rough life. He had bad experiences with school. He is in this higher education prison program that has been undermined by the prison in a number of various ways, to where it's not easy to take it seriously as a higher education program. It's more like it can feel at times as though it's part of our sentence. So he's sitting in the day room one day, I think Saturday morning, literally watching Saturday morning cartoon, when an officer walks into the dormitory and they're just walking by and they see that his fingernails are a little bit long.

So they say something to him about his long fingernails. Technically, there's a rule on the book about long fingernails that I've only seen enforced two times the whole time I was incarcerated. But they decide that since they didn't like his reaction when he said something about his nails, that they were going to come down on him about those nails. So he went to confinement in that interaction, and he got removed from the program. So in essence, he lost access to higher education because his fingernails were too long one morning when he was sitting there trying to watch television. It's a problem.

Another individual that I'm familiar with his story, was transferred out of a program because somebody that he knew before he was incarcerated went to school with, high school a decade or two ago, got a job at that institution. So they were transferred away, lost access to their education. That's over with for them now, unless after they're released, they're able to gain access. But I mean, when your experience is such, it's hard to engage and stay engaged.

One thing that might also help understand why the administration of the program matters so much is... So I mentioned earlier that while you're incarcerated, there are very few paying jobs. The ones that exist are pennies on the dollar. However, it is mandatory that you will have a job and you will work. So one thing that might highlight the perspective is when you're incarcerated and you're assigned to work and your job is to work in the kitchen, you're not getting paid. You're working a lot. The conditions are poor. It is not only socially accepted that you can steal from the kitchen and bring that back to the dorm and sell that stuff. It's almost expected that you're going to do that, because stealing from the kitchen is a way to make up for the injustice of not being paid.

And there is a number of blind eyes that are turned to that practice because it's understood that as part of your sentence, this is something that you do to protect your ability to navigate the world. So stealing while you're incarcerated is an accepted norm. And in some ways, when a higher education in prison program is run as part of the carceral structure, not taking that program all the way serious is something that should be expected because it's becoming part of that carceral structure. And people navigate that in ways that are healthiest for them, but not necessarily ways that allow them to engage and benefit from the experience in the ways that they could or otherwise would in a different setting.

Jason:

So you're attending Indiana right now.

John:

Mm-hmm. Online.

Jason:

How did what you were doing in prison prepare you for continuing your education once you were released?

John:

So the program that I was in at the Florida Gateway College, amazingly, essentially all of my credits did transfer over.

Jason:

Oh, wow.

John:

So I went in with the 60 credits that I needed to join the program. I needed to clean up a couple prerequisites. I did a semester here at Santa Fe in order to do that. So I needed specific classes in math, and I just came in and scooped them up here real fast. But other than that, I was able to get into the program that I wanted. We were allowed in that program, for a limited time, really great access to computers, Canvas, as well as a number of other learning platforms that were peripheral to Canvas. So we were on McGraw Hill Connect, we were on Pearson, we were on Cengage.

Jason:

Oh, wow.

John:

And doing that really was huge benefit in doing online courses with Indiana University. I'm in Canvas. I'm on all these other platforms, and so I had a lot of familiarity with that. Huge benefit. The guys that are incarcerated in that program now, from my understanding, are limited to just Canvas, and their access to Canvas is limited, which is really a shame. But while I was there, I did have that. One thing that I do want to take a minute to clarify, and I think this is a good point, is that I was in multiple higher education and prison programs while I was inside. So the Florida Gateway College is one that I have a lot of criticism about, is one that I was in for a long time. I consider it to be one that was top down in that it was federally funded and it was administered through the DOC and the Florida Gateway College administrations. Neither one of them really had any idea what they were doing. That's fine. That's not a criticism of them as institutions. That is a criticism of them doing that work.

But while I was incarcerated, I was also fortunate to participate in Stetson University's Community Education project. When that first started, it was literally just some professors who happened to work at Stetson University, coming in on their own time, with their own resources and really running an informal reading group. So I consider that to be a really bottom-up way of growing a program, structuring a program. So they would come in and give us access to these resources and really just see how we engage with it and talk with us and just have discussion groups. That evolved into them teaching informal non-credited versions of the classes that they taught on campus. And then that eventually

evolved... After I left and came back, when I graduated Florida Gateway College, I was able to return to that program. That eventually evolved into credit-bearing programs. They're not degree seeking, but they are taking for-credit programs at that.

But that was a whole different experience. That was through a private university, the university itself was run much differently, and it was organic in that it was actually people that were engaged with us personally, knew us, understood our goals, understood the ways that we work with higher education, and were really facilitating the best program that they were able to do. So that was an amazing experience in that not only did I build relationships that really have been beneficial to me since I've been released, but I've really got a better understanding of what an academic setting could be for those who are incarcerated.

So the discussions that took place in the classroom were amazing. The relationships I built with my classmates are just so meaningful to me. And it was really just in... It was the contrast that I needed to the cold, remote, almost industrial education I got through the Florida Gateway College and DOC program. To a personalized, organic, genuine... And not to say that Gateway isn't genuine. It's a program that is amazing, but it's not for those who are participating in it in some ways that are really meaningful and important. Whereas this program was something that we could immerse ourselves into and actually create a space for growth, and not a space for acquiring a credential that we could use to get a job.

Jason:

Yeah, and the way that you talk about it, it didn't feel like it was rehabilitation, right? Whereas maybe the Florida Gateway as part of the...

John:

Florida Gateway, that program was, in a lot of ways, part of my sentence. That was time that I did. It was the best time that I did, but it wasn't what higher education can be. So having an understanding of what higher education can be as far as... We were able to organically build a community, a cohort of learners in the Florida Gateway College program, despite the structures that were in place inside. But we were also able to build that same kind of cohesion and have the same level, more engagement with the Stetson program Community Education Project in a way that was more reflective to me personally, or more enlightening me personally, of what higher education could be. So in that way, it has informed the way that I approach higher education out here and the way that I've navigated since.

Jason:

So how did you end up deciding on-

John:

So I was initially looking at data science programs, and I'm kind of from Gainesville. So when I saw that there was one starting at UF, I was like, "This is cool. I'm going to go get into that." And I was released to Gainesville with the intention of going to UF. and I have an AA degree through a Florida community college that has an articulation agreement with UF, but I was anticipating having pushback from my felony. I was going to fight that. I was ready to appeal. But when I tried to enroll in the program and I was denied due to the fact that it was a new program that wasn't accepting transfer students, I didn't know what to do then. So I was still living in Gainesville. I mean, now I'm in Gainesville, I ended up doing Indiana University online because it was the only public university I could find with the data science program all online, and it's an amazing program. But yeah, it was the only one I could find.

Jason:

So in terms of applying to Indiana and kind of going there, did they have any steps specific to students that had been formally incarcerated?

John:

Interesting, yes, they did, and I did not take it seriously at all, that process. Basically, the person, my academic advisor who was my transfer advisor informally was like, "Hey, write a one-page letter on your incarceration for the people who are going to review this." And I just kind of quick, fast typed out a one-page letter. I don't know. I don't know why I didn't take it as seriously as I could have, but they approved me. They came back with one question, a day later, they came back with one question after I mailed that off, and the question was, "Are you actively on parole or probation?" I was like, "No, I'm done. My sentence has ended." And then two hours later, I got a notice of acceptance.

Jason:

Oh, wow. Okay.

John:

So that was a lot different than my experience with enrolling in Santa Fe College.

Jason:

Tell me about your experience enrolling with Santa Fe.

John:

So my experience with enrolling with Santa Fe College, as I was filling on the online application, I was presented with an option to identify... This is almost two years ago, but this is my memory of it. I was presented with an option to identify whether I had been convicted of a felony. I checked yes. And another box opened up, I think maybe requiring a brief explanation, maybe that was there. If there was, I might have put just like, "I did 22 years in prison. I'm out now," or something equivalently succinct, maybe not quite so. And I waited two weeks before I was given a opportunity to meet with the disciplinary review committee.

I understand why that committee exists. That was a harrowing experience. So it was a Zoom call. There were, I want to say six or eight faces in the Zoom call. And in that Zoom call, I was asked questions about my crime, the night that my crime happened, as well as probing questions regarding what I've been up to since my release. Having to elocute the actual incident, to talk about the night that the crime... I didn't have to do that with the judge, so that was a rough experience. That was hard for me. That was intimidating, and incredibly uncomfortable.

I was able to navigate that experience because it was done in a way that was empathetic with... It was done well. It shouldn't have been done, but one thing that I think would be really beneficial to those who are formally incarcerated is to understand that process better, why it exists. I don't agree with why it exists, but it needs to be better understood going into it by those who are formally incarcerated. And it would be helpful if there was some preparation work done for them, almost like a job interview preparation. Because it's a committee meeting and it's a lot like that, but it's also a lot like that and talking about the worst thing you've ever done, and the most traumatic experience of your life. So sit in there and have fun with that. Hopefully, that'll go well.

Jason:

Wow. Thank you for sharing that.

I want to thank John for coming in to talk with us. We'll hear more of his story in part two, which will drop next week. Funding for this program was provided through a grant from Florida Humanities, with funds from the National Endowment for the Humanities. Any views, findings, conclusions or recommendations expressed in this program do not necessarily represent those of the Florida Humanities or the National Endowment for the Humanities. This episode was produced by Ann Thebaut and Lex Shelton. Thanks for listening.