Learning to Heal

For some of us, learning can open our eyes to the suffering of others. Education can be a way of healing and a way to help others heal from the trauma in their lives. Today we’re going to be talking with Angie Dougherty who is currently pursuing her associates at Santa Fe. I was grateful to be able to talk with Angie about the ways she is actively working to make a difference in the lives of those around her and how her education is helping her to be able to do the most good.

Funding for this program was provided through a grant from Florida Humanities with funds from the National Endowment for the Humanities. Any views, findings, conclusions or recommendations expressed in this program do not necessarily represent those of the Florida Humanities or the National Endowment for the Humanities.

Full transcripts can be found under each episode at https://freetolearn.buzzsprout.com/. 

Transcript

Jason:

Welcome to Free to Learn, a podcast exploring the stories of formerly incarcerated college students. For some of us, learning can open our eyes to the suffering of others. Education can be a way of healing and a way to help others heal from the trauma of their lives. Today we're going to be talking with Angie Doherty, who is currently pursuing her associates at Santa Fe. I was grateful to be able to talk with Angie about the ways she's actively working to make a difference in the lives of those around her and how her education is helping her to be able to do the most good.

My name is Jason Frank. I'm an instructional designer at Santa Fe College, and I'm interested in better understanding how we can create a learning environment that better meets the needs of these students. The first step in good design is listening to the people you're working to support. So let's hear what Angie has to say.

To start off, could you introduce yourself, tell us your name, where you're going to school, and what you're majoring in, and things that you want people to know about you.

Angie:

Okay. My name is Angie. I'm majoring in environmental science. I'm going to Santa Fe College. I'm 39 and I'm an Aries.

Jason:

That's fantastic. Okay.

Angie:

[inaudible 00:01:19]. Sorry.

Jason:

You're going here to Santa Fe. What made you decide on Santa Fe? What kinds of things did you factor in when you decided on attending here?

Angie:

I knew K.C. from the Gateless Gate Zen Center, and most of the girls came to Santa Fe from there. So when I moved back to Gainesville, I had heard so many good things about Santa Fe that I decided to come here.

Jason:

In terms of preparing, what kinds of educational opportunities did you have while you were in prison?

Angie:

I was at Lowell C.I. At the work camp, and I went to small gas engine repair and got a certification in that. When I got out though, I found it was pretty useless, not sure why, and also found out that I didn't want to do that kind of work and it's pretty dirty and pretty laborious. And so I wanted to contribute more to the world. I wanted to contribute more to our environment and healing our world.

Jason:

Why did you pursue that while you were in there? What was the incentive for you?

Angie:

I was at R&O, which is where you first are... You're received and they tell you what you're going to be doing. And as I was leaving, I had been assigned to work in the kitchen and I was leaving and a girl named Stacy, she was like, "Hey, you need to go to small gas engines." And I'm like, "What? They've already assigned me. I'm leaving the building." And there you don't do what you're not supposed to do. You just do what you're told. And she's like, "No, no, no, go turn around and go in." And so I did and I was scared half to death like "I'm going to get in trouble."

But I was blessed and they said, "Sure." And they sent me to the work camp, which is minimum security. I was not fenced in all day long. I pretty much got really into yoga, working out, helping the other girls with yoga and working out. And it was fun. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't summer camp, but small gas engines was pretty fun. Mr. Creole was a wonderful teacher and the girls I was with at class, they were wonderful people.

Jason:

How do you think that experience prepared you to continue at your education?

Angie:

I think it showed me that even under some pretty bad circumstances, I could continue. I could still achieve something great, even under that kind of pressure. I was scared to death when I got to prison. I didn't know what to expect. I was terrified to be honest. But I just did it. A lot of praying in, a lot of meditating, a lot of writing, and just trying to keep my focus on what I was going to be doing when I got out and remembering this is temporary. This is just temporary.

Jason:

When you're in prison, were there any mentors or people that helped you to focus that attention, that energy?

Angie:

There were a few girls, older ladies. There's always seemed to be older ladies on my path that have helped me quite a bit. One lady in particular named Donna, every day she did lunges and squats around the entire track, which I think was about a half a mile around. I got with her and started working with her, and then she started teaching stuff, aerobics, and I learned stuff aerobics from her. And then before I knew it, just girls were coming to me asking, because I wanted to do more than she was doing. And then I ended up with one over on this side of me on my right and one on my left. And before I knew it, there was 20 girls doing it with me. And that's how that happened. And then we all started doing yoga together too.

Jason:

Did you have yoga experience before you went in?

Angie:

I did not.

Jason:

How did you learn that?

Angie:

We had a couple of the COs because that would let us into one of the workout rooms, and there was a little TV VCR together thing, those old ones. And there was a Bryan Kest power yoga video in there, and that's how I started.

Jason:

Oh, wow.

Angie:

Yeah. And then when I got out, I actually found that video at the thrift store and continued with that.

Jason:

That's amazing. Yeah. You had mentioned to me earlier, so you're the first person in your family to go to college?

Angie:

Yes, yes.

Jason:

All right.

Angie:

Yep. My mother did go to trade school. She did go to a beauty school.

Jason:

What kinds of fears did you have about that? So not having seen people in your family go through that process.

Angie:

I knew I wanted a better life. I wasn't very fearful. I always did my homework in public school growing up, and I was a pretty decent student. I knew I wanted something better. I grew up in a single wide trailer and shared a room with my two sisters, and my mom and stepdad were on the other end of the trailer, and sometimes there were milk jugs in the floor because somebody fell through. I knew that I didn't want that kind of life.

Jason:

In terms of goals for you, once you've finished your degree here at Santa Fe, where do you see yourself going?

Angie:

I'll have my AA, so that's definitely beneficial. Like I said before, I want to help heal the world. I want to help with the environment as well, but I'm leaning more toward... A real passion of mine has always

been spirituality and helping people physically heal and get in shape and things like that. And then I discovered traditional Chinese medicine at the Five Element school of acupuncture. I go there. Got into reading about shamanism and energy work, Reiki, things like that. I just interviewed for an internship at a civil engineering company, and I'm hoping to get that position. My partner, Beth, is helping me learn AutoCAD, which is... It's less physically laborious on my body, so I would like to learn that. It's a decent job. It pays good, and it's creating, I'm a creative person. I'm definitely an artistic soul. I'm enjoying that so far. And so that will pave the way for me to fund my passion for healing.

Jason:

Okay. This may feel like a little bit... When you talk about healing the world, I really like that idea. What does a healed world look like in your mind?

Angie:

A world where we see the light in each other, where we see the human, where it doesn't matter what you drive, it doesn't matter what clothes you have or where you live or... We help each other. We worked together because that's what humans did before. Somebody planted that first seed and decided to grow a crop and then discovered shiny things and all those wonderful things that happened. I don't guess they were that wonderful, but that led to where we're at. I feel like industrialization has just destroyed us as a society, as people. I just feel that we're enslaved and we don't even know the people that are leading us anymore.

I know in my generation, definitely less and less we're just so disconnected from each other and from the folks that are in power, so to speak. We get empty promises. Yeah, empty promises everywhere. I would like a world where your word is valued, where you can trust your neighbor, where you know your neighbor, where you know their name, a mindful world. You turn the doorknob when you close the door. Things like that where you're aware of the person sitting next to you and you're aware that they're just trying to make it through this life too. We're only here for a little bit and we should be able to enjoy it. We shouldn't have to slave away and then be broke down when we're 60 years old. And that's supposed to be our golden years when now they want to make it in our seventies, and it's like... I want to see a just world.

Jason:

Knowing where you are now, if you could go back and talk to yourself just as you're getting out of prison, is there any advice or direction that you would give yourself, anything you wish knew?

Angie:

Most definitely.

Jason:

What would you say to that Angie?

Angie:

Don't go back to Starke, Florida. Going back there was not a good idea. I went back down the wrong road for a minute, and luckily somehow the universe, God, whatever you want to call it, keeps leading me back to Gainesville. And I stayed this time, and I've been back since 2012. It's a very healing place. And I just wish I could tell that person, "Don't be scared. You might be uncomfortable. You might not

know anyone, but that comfort zone that you do know, that's a dark place. And that's not where you need to go." Most definitely. I probably would tell myself to have reached out to the Gateless Gate Zen Center while I was there, even though I technically did not qualify because I wasn't there long enough. But I wish I would've reached out to K.C.

Jason:

Tell me a bit about that center. How did you find it? What did it mean to you, and what did you learn from that?

Angie:

I met some girls in prison that were heading that way, and when I got out, I got in touch with them. We stayed in touch through letters. When I came back over here, I just went there and found them, I believe that's how it went. And then I started going to their bowels in the mornings and then... Well, sometimes they were at like 5:30 in the morning. I actually do do bowels today. I picked that back up in the past few months. They're very, very helpful. And then they had community meditation, I believe it was twice a week. I did that. I convinced K.C. to let me move in, and I lived there and I moved out and I came back. It was a good experience. I learned a lot. I learned a lot from him. I learned how to be a mindful person, how to see outside of my own ego to see that I wasn't the only one that struggles in life. And with a little bit of discipline and a little bit of perseverance, life can get better.

Jason:

How long did you take between when you were released and you started attending college?

Angie:

I was released on June 1st, 2010. And I started Santa Fe January 2013.

Jason:

Okay. Was Santa Fe the only college you applied to?

Angie:

Yes.

Jason:

Did you have any friends who were here? I think you had mentioned there were other people in the house that were attending.

Angie:

Yeah.

Jason:

Okay. How did they help you prepare to come to college or apply or get ready-

Angie:

K.C. really helped me. I believe he brought me here and helped me with the application process and all.

Jason:

Did you find anything particularly challenging about that process?

Angie:

I was scared to death. I didn't know what to do when I came in. But no, it wasn't really challenging. Everyone was very helpful.

Speaker 4:

Having somebody to bring you here was key.

Angie:

Absolutely. It was very helpful.

Jason:

In terms of choosing classes, who helped you with that? Getting classes and stuff ready?

Angie:

I believe I just went online and looked and found a major I liked and then chose the classes.

Jason:

Based on that. Okay, good.

Angie:

Yeah, I had some prerequisites to get through.

Jason:

Now, some colleges, Santa Fe's one of them will sometimes have steps that formally-incarcerated students need to take before being admitted. Can you talk a little bit about those?

Angie:

I believe I had to write a letter to the disciplinary board explaining my charges and the person I was after prison compared to before, and they approved it so I didn't have to go before the board.

Jason:

Okay. So the letter... What was it like writing that letter? How did that feel?

Angie:

I was nervous, for sure. I used to really question like "Did I say the right thing? What if I don't get in, what then?" But I did get in, K.C. had to write a recommendation, I believe, for me.

Jason:

And you had mentioned earlier that you were writing, you were reflecting when you were in prison, so that probably... I would imagine that helped to prepare you to answer some of those questions.

Angie:

Yes. I've been journaling since I was 12.

Jason:

Oh, wow. Do you mind if I ask how are you paying for college?

Angie:

I got The Last Mile Scholarship for this semester.

Jason:

Oh, congratulations. Fantastic.

Angie:

Professor or Dr. Vertigo Moody, recommended on my application and Dr. Bill Stephenson.

Jason:

Oh, fantastic. And prior to getting that scholarship, how have you been paying as you've been going?

Angie:

Pell Grants.

Jason:

Pell Grants primary. Okay, fantastic. Have you been working while attending?

Angie:

Yes.

Jason:

Yeah.

Angie:

Yep.

Jason:

What kinds of jobs have you had?

Angie:

Serving tables. Waiting tables. Lawn maintenance and waiting tables, and one small gas engine shop.

Jason:

Oh, so you did get to use it a little bit?

Angie:

Yes, I did.

Jason:

Enough to know that you didn't want to do it.

Angie:

Right. That's very tough work. It definitely is.

Jason:

Do you remember your first day on campus?

Angie:

I remember I had to take algebra and it had been years since high school. Math has always been a little challenging for me. Professor B, I don't remember his full name. Forgive me, professor B if you're listening, but he was from Haiti. He was amazing. And he showed me that I could learn math. I had this belief that you're either right-brained or you're left brained back then, and that's not true at all. You can learn. There's different ways to learn, which is one of the things that you learn in college, is that's one of the goals. I actually asked one of my math professors, "When am I ever going to do this? When am I going to use this?" And his reply was, "This is to learn how to problem solve in different ways." Shout out to Professor B too, because-

Jason:

Shout out to Professor B.

Angie:

I cried and he would follow me out of the classroom. He wouldn't let me leave, "Let's sit down and let's try it this way."

Jason:

When you were starting out, how open had you decided to be about your carceral experience?

Angie:

I've always been a pretty open book. I'm a little shy at first, but I'm very talkative once you get to know me and I'm very open.

Jason:

And what has that been like for you?

Angie:

I think it's probably hindered me getting some jobs in the past. Definitely. I feel like I has. I can think of one in particular that it did definitely get in the way. I had the job until they ran the background check.

Jason:

Has it impacted any of your relationships with your teachers or with other students that you've been here with?

Angie:

No.

Jason:

Okay.

Angie:

No, no. Everyone, all the staff at Santa Fe have been so nice to me and so helpful. Everyone. If I have a problem and I go to somebody, they're so helpful. Just recently, Dr. Merritt, I have a little anxiety, some PTSD going on, so group work and stuff like that can get a little overwhelming to me a little bit sometimes. She definitely helped me solve the problem and worked with me to make me more comfortable.

Jason:

What did she do?

Angie:

She's going to work with me.

Jason:

Okay. Yeah. That's-

Angie:

In the labs.

Jason:

Yeah. Oh, fantastic.

Angie:

Yeah, she's very nice. Very nice lady. I like her.

Jason:

Do you have any places on campus that you like to go to just study or reflect or just-

Angie:

I like to go on in the woods across the street. There's some picnic tables over there and some trails that I like to walk. I like to go over to the zoo as well.

Jason:

That's fantastic. I do regular walks around campus and I need to branch out and get over across to the street or over to the zoo. That's wonderful.

Again, coming back to this idea of wish you knew, is there anything that you wish you had known about college earlier?

Angie:

Maybe just sometimes that studying a little harder. It's pretty quick, curriculums here. You go through. I know my first exam coming up in Core Bio is going to be on seven chapters.

Jason:

It's a lot.

Angie:

Yeah.

Jason:

It's a lot. Again, thank you for taking the time to talk because there are other things you definitely could be doing.

Did you ever get involved in any of the non-curricular stuff, like the clubs or sports or any of those events?

Angie:

No, sir. When I was younger I wanted to be involved in sports. My parents just never got around doing that for me, so I didn't develop that, I guess. I do want to check out the gym though eventually. Eventually I'll get over there. I get a break in bio.

Jason:

Are there any of the support services at the college tutoring counseling center that you've used?

Angie:

Yeah, I've used the counseling services here.

Jason:

Okay. How has that been?

Angie:

They're great. Absolutely. They're quick to give you an appointment. Pretty sure I've just walked in a couple times and sat and talked for an hour. They've definitely helped me.

Jason:

Did you know any other... As you've been attending the college, do you have any friends or acquaintances that have also had experience with being in prison?

Angie:

Yeah, my partner.

Jason:

Okay. How has that helped, having somebody who can relate?

Angie:

It helps to have somebody that understands, that you can talk to. Because it can be a little lonely, for sure, finding someone that understands what you're going through. And Beth is very, very understanding and very good listener.

Jason:

If you were talking to somebody who didn't have any experience with the prison system and trying to explain to them how that experience impacts your experience as a student, what would you say to them?

Angie:

Sometimes I do feel like a lone wolf on occasion for sure. A lot of my peers around me, they haven't been through a lot of the things I've been through, that can be a little challenging to try to relate to the other folks in class with me. If I could say anything, I would just say just keep going forward. Just keep moving forward. You can do it. What somebody else thinks about you, doesn't matter. It does not matter. The only thing that matters is what you think and if you just keep pushing forward, don't think about the whole picture, just think about the next step. That's been very helpful for me because I used to get very overwhelmed. Now I just focus on what's the next step and just take it step by step. And sometimes for me it's day by day, minute by minute.

Jason:

Is there anything that the college could do to improve your experience overall that the college isn't doing?

Angie:

I guess the only thing I would have to say is we move really, really fast through subjects and it would be nice to be able to take more time on subjects and absorb them, not just memorize them and regurgitate them on a test and be done. That's pretty much the only thing I would have to say about it.

Jason:

Yeah, the pace it can be pretty intense.

Angie:

Because there's some very interesting things, especially in biology and it's like "What? We're moving on already?"

Jason:

It's almost the whole mindfulness is really about slowing down and savoring and digesting and just being in that moment.

Angie:

Right, right.

Jason:

If you were to describe yourself as a student, what kind of student are you?

Angie:

I would say I'm very good at completing, getting my "Homework done" quote-unquote, have a little test anxiety. I'm way better at just solo doing my work. I find that there's not a lot of communication sometimes in group projects and group activities, which goes back to mindfulness and folks being more mindful. Communication is definitely part of that. If you're on a team, communication is important.

Jason:

Have you taken any online classes?

Angie:

Yeah.

Jason:

Tell me about it. Tell me about that experience.

Angie:

I find it better to have someone holding me accountable like "I need you to show up for class. This is going to count towards your grade." And that is more helpful for me personally. Not saying that online is good or bad, everyone is different, but I've tried online a couple times and I've passed, but being in class is more helpful for me.

Jason:

How was working with the technology when doing the online class for you?

Angie:

Easy. Canvas is a very great platform. We use Pearson right now in my bio class, and it's a great platform as well. And you could just link right through Canvas to Pearson. Super simple. You just got to sit down and take the time to read the instructions.

Jason:

What do you think has been your most valuable study habit?

Angie:

Handwritten notes.

Jason:

Really? Okay.

Angie:

When you hand write your notes and you draw out, let's say, the structure of a cell or the chemical equation for glucose, you're literally forming a neural pathway in your brain and that's literally what a memory is. It's a neural pathway. So handwriting notes is important. I write so many notes, but it's great because I have an A. So that's good.

Jason:

That's fantastic. So as you think about the teachers that you've had here, what... I want you to think about your best teachers, your favorite teachers, what kinds of qualities or characteristics do they have in common?

Angie:

Conversing with the class, the humanness, the getting on your level, the taking the time if you have a question, you're struggling with a subject, to sit down with you understand your personal life professor. A couple of my professors have been very helpful in those areas. I've lost a few relative, my sister and my grandmother and my brother and stuff through this all and things like that. And they've been very, very kind.

Jason:

Kindness can sometimes be underrated, can't it?

Angie:

Yeah, it sure can.

Jason:

So you've talked a little bit about this, but I want to revisit it. So this idea of after college, what does success look like to you?

Angie:

For me personally, it's having my bills paid with some leftover for some security and to be able to help others and obviously to retire one of these days, and to be happy. I just want to be happy in life. I don't need a billion-dollar mansion or anything like that. But definitely being able to go to the dentist and healthcare, and a decent roof over your head and healthy food is important. That's success to me, enjoying what I do and getting paid for it.

Jason:

Excellent. Do you see yourself continuing after you get your AA with education or is that going to be it for a little while for you?

Angie:

I'm looking toward traditional Chinese medicine.

Jason:

Okay.

Angie:

That's part of the whole shamanism deal.

Jason:

What does that look like in terms of studying school?

Angie:

Acupuncture, learning acupuncture. Fun times, but it's worth it. It's worth it. Those folks are a blessing in my life and I would love to give that back. I would love to be able to take someone else's hand and pull them out of the darkness and show them that you can come to the light, you can get there. I've definitely been to the depths of hell. And as Pink says in one of her songs, it's called I Am Here. It's one of my favorite songs. And she says, "I know that I'll be ready when the devil is near."

Jason:

What kinds of things are you... Right now in your life how are you helping people to walk towards that light that you talked about? What are some things that you're doing to lift?

Angie:

I'm helping my sister right now. I'm helping my sister and my niece and my mother right now. I'm really trying to help pull them out too. Seems to be a family curse, but I'm definitely really trying to. I want to get there so I can get them there too. I hope in every way I can. Just being there when they're having a bad day or they just need somebody to talk to or they need me to run to the grocery store. Just anything like that. Right now, that's where I'm at. I'm working on myself also, so I'm on my own healing journey. I think right now, my family and I'm helping a lot of animals. One of my neighbors got sick and so I've been feeding her cats and they all need to go to Cat Nip and some coordinating that, trying to help out with that for her.

I made dessert for my neighbors at Christmas and took it over to them like, "Hey, here's some strawberry yum yum." And I try to share what knowledge I have to people that are open. I've learned over the years that people have to be open and ask for it, can't just run around shouting it to the rooftops because not everybody's going to get it. And my sister and my mom and my niece, they're all open, very open to it. Sometimes just stepping out your front door and going out into the unknown is the biggest roadblock. But once you get there, it's not that bad. But that first step sometimes can be the hardest step.

Jason:

I love how you talk about light and dark as these kind of forces and pull from your perspective, what is the pull of the dark. So you've got these two pulls and one of them, even knowing that there could be some negative consequences going down this path. What is the pull? Why do you think people are drawn to that?

Angie:

I think we do what we see, what we've grown up watching. And for me, I always said, "I don't want to be like this. I don't want to be... I'll never be like this. I'll never smoke a cigarette, I'll never drink a beer. I'll never do A, B, C, and D." And I did it. And I think for me though, it was escaping. It was escaping. Escaping the torment, escaping... It was really hard. It was really difficult in my family coming out of it. It felt like no one could possibly understand. And I know now that there's millions of people that go through that, and probably worse than I went through, but I didn't know how to deal with the feelings I had.

And so the pull toward that was I can get rid of these feelings, I can numb it out, and if I can numb it out, I can move forward in life. Now I know I was really just doing what the adults around me did, but the pulls were the dark. It's easier. It's easier. It takes work when you come from that to get into the light. And when you come from it, you're comfortable in the dark. My name literally means a heavenly messenger, star of the sea, and my last name means misery. I always imagine I was a light born out of the misery, and now my journey is to heal and bring those other lights out of the dark.

Jason:

And so what does it mean to be in the light then?

Angie:

This right here, having good people around me that care, taking care of myself, helping other people when they need help, especially the innocent like kids and animals. The world makes me want to cry a lot. And I think that was a lot of my pull toward the darkness. It's hard work to stand out and be different and not just go with society, and not eat a steak because that animal went through hell and most people are just like, "Oh, whatever, I'm going to get my McDonald's." But no, that's not right. And it's hard to be the different one.

Jason:

Being in the light is the ability to be different.

Angie:

It feels better. I believe that when you eat... I don't mean to say you. When I eat an animal that went through hell like that, I'm absorbing that negativity and that energy that it went through. And I don't want to be part of that. I don't want to contribute to that.

Jason:

And if there's anything else you'd like to talk about, we can, but I feel like this was a really interesting conversation and everyone that we've talked to has had... There are common themes, but everyone's had their own experience and I really appreciate you sharing your story.

Angie:

I appreciate you letting me share my story. I've always wanted to share my story, didn't know how. And yeah, it is nice. That's part of being in the light, so to speak, knowing that other people have been through similar experiences and you're not alone. When you're alone, you're in the dark. To shine, you got to get out there and you got to share your gifts with the world and get out there. For me anyway.

Jason:

And I think that's the common thread. The common thread with everyone is everyone that we have talked to, they want to help. There are a couple that have set up foundations, but if they could help other students in similar situations, they would. And really the only barrier is not knowing. Who do is there that needs that help?

Angie:

For me, it's how do I get something like that even started?

Jason:

Yeah, exactly.

Angie:

Where would you-

Jason:

That can be overwhelming.

Angie:

How do you start that? Yeah.

Jason:

And that's the thing that we also understand. I understand the college, I understand some of the stresses with academics and the organization and the politics of it, but I don't have this experience and I know that I can only help so much. I can only create so many opportunities. And for this to be successful, people like you need to share your stories.

Angie:

Absolutely.

Jason:

And your experience

Angie:

Having professors and just about every single one that understand anxiety and post-traumatic stress disorder or complex PTSD, whatever they're calling it these days, that understand that and can understand when a student is maybe flat lining in their brain in class or something and things like that is very helpful. Having to work and go to school at the same time, and then dealing with your personal life. Again, it's the humanness of it.

Jason:

Again, I want to thank Angie for coming in to talk with us and for sharing her insights on what made her success possible. Funding for this program was provided through a grant from Florida Humanities with funds from the National Endowment for the Humanities. Any views, findings, conclusions or recommendations expressed in this program do not necessarily represent those of the Florida Humanities or the National Endowment for the Humanities.This episode was produced by Ann Thebaut and Lex Shelton.