Learning to Belong

Over the past couple of months we have been sharing the stories of current and former Santa Fe students with carceral experience. During our last podcast we featured a discussion with administrators, staff, and faculty at Santa Fe. Today, we wanted to bring as many of our guests together as possible. This podcast was recorded in front of a live audience during the Free To Learn symposium on April 14th in the Santa Fe College Lyceum. 

Funding for this program was provided through a grant from Florida Humanities with funds from the National Endowment for the Humanities. Any views, findings, conclusions or recommendations expressed in this program do not necessarily represent those of the Florida Humanities or the National Endowment for the Humanities.

Full transcripts can be found under each episode at https://freetolearn.buzzsprout.com/. 

Transcript

Jason :

Over the past couple of months, we've been sharing stories of current and former Santa Fe students with carceral experience. My name is Jason Frank. I'm an instructional designer at Santa Fe College, and I'm interested in better understanding how we can create a learning environment that better meets the needs of these students. The first step to good design is listening to the people you're working to support. So let's hear what our panelists have to say.

Jason :

Hey, welcome everyone. Welcome back. I want to talk a little bit about what we've been doing for the last couple of months and why we have these people sitting here together to continue the conversation. So for the past few months, we've been sharing some podcasts that we've recorded in our studio with the help of Lex and Anne, and Steve Melendez. And our goal, much like what we experienced this morning with Marilyn, was to tell stories that we don't often get a chance to hear, and to be able to talk with students and learn from their experiences. And I think we've all learned very well this morning the importance of having messengers that can speak with authority and with experience.

Jason :

And so we interviewed former and current Santa Fe students with carceral experience. And then, our last podcast which we dropped just this last Tuesday, we talked with administrators and faculty on campus about their experience working with these students, to get an institutional perspective. Because the goal of these conversations is to create a better experience. And we want to do that as an instructional designer, through design. What can we build? What systems can we put in place? What processes can we put in place to support our most vulnerable students? Stephanie Marshall said in a meeting I was in the other day that we can't afford to waste any people anymore. And how do we make sure that we're not doing that?

Jason :

So I'd like to get started. Again, my name is Jason Frank, I'm an instructional designer here at Santa Fe and I've had the privilege of working with Dr. Tebow on projects like this, and it's been transformative for me personally to have these experiences. I'd like to invite each of our panel members to introduce themselves, and then hopefully we'll have a discussion.

Bill:

I'm Bill Stevenson. I chair the Department of Humanities and Foreign Languages here at Santa Fe.

Beth:

I'm Beth Dodd. I am a former Santa Fe student and I am going to school at Daytona State College now. I got a big mouth.

Jason :

Santa Fe graduate?

Beth:

Yeah, yeah. I did graduate, yes.

Adrian:

Adrian Price, President of Justice Club and current student at Santa Fe.

Adrienne:

Adrienne Provost, and the former Director of Trio Programs here at Santa Fe College.

Ryan:

Hey, I'm Ryan Woods, I'm captain here at the Police Department at Santa Fe.

John:

I'm John Wise, formerly incarcerated student of Data Science at Indiana University Online. I was a former student here at Santa Fe.

Bea:

Bea Awonie, Assistant Vice President for Student Affairs and also the College Ombuds.

Dan:

Good morning, my name is Dan Rodkin. I'm the Associate Vice President for Student Affairs here at Santa Fe College.

Tommy :

And I am Tommy Maple. I teach speech and media studies here and I'm also the founding advisor of the Justice Club.

Jason :

So I want to start off speaking specifically to Beth and Adrian and John. Beth shared with me that when her podcast dropped, when her interview dropped, that she shared it with as many people as she could. Coworkers, friends, family members. And I want each of you to speak just for a few minutes about why it is important for you to have an opportunity to tell your stories and share those stories with others.

Bea:

Well, I personally wanted to share my story because I feel like the more normalized it is to get out of prison, go to college and be successful in your career, the more open people will be to hiring people who have just come out of prison. I feel like there's this image in the media, in all of our minds of this scary person that gets out of prison that just wants to hurt us all, and that's really not the case. All we want to do is succeed just like all of you. And it makes it a hundred times harder if every door that we approach is closed and locked, and barred. So I want to be really open and I want to change what people think of when they think of someone who has got out of prison and applied to their job.

Adrian:

So I think the main reason why this should be heard is the fact that I just got a job at North Florida Hospital. And it was a hurdle to get through that. I was hired. Like the commissioner said yesterday, they put a ban on the question, have you ever committed a felon? And I didn't know that until yesterday. I heard about it, but I didn't actually know it was a thing. So I went through the interview process, and as you all can tell, I can present myself well so I knew I won them over. And so they never asked a question so in my mind I was like, okay, I'm just waiting for this to come up. I'm nervous. They hired me, I'm getting all the packets, the pre-board and the onboarding. "Welcome to the team." I'm like, I know something just... It's too good to be true.

Adrian:

So it did pop up, and they use a third party to do their investigations on the background. So the third party contacted me and they said, "Hey, what you alluded to," because I had to tell them finally that I committed a crime back in 2006. They said, "We can't find it." So I'm like, okay, should I lie about this and say, no, that was a mistake. But my conviction with God, which is the main reason for my turnaround. So that caused me to be truthful. I had to be truthful. So I told them, "Hey, you can find it. This is the case number." So they found it and they gave me in return a pre-adverse action. Meaning that, hey, this may be the reason why we don't hire you, so your start date has been delayed.

Adrian:

So I got in contact with Anne Tebow because I gave a short statement to the third party, because I had to go back to them. I gave a short statement and I contacted city commissioner too and I put two references on there, and I told reference these people. So when I talked to the commissioner, I texted her and let her know. And then, she contacted me and she called me about three hours later and she said, "I'm glad you told me about this." And she said, "I know the CEO there. His name is Eric and I've been waiting to pull him in on this type of things." So I thank her reference and what she spoke to him about me is what got me the job. So be thankful for good leaders like city commissioner Desmond Walker and Duncan.

Adrian:

But back to the point and to question is, when I got this podcast, because of everything I went through to get this job and because of it had been so sensitive, and like Beth said, just the stigma, I haven't even shared it with my coworkers. So the fact that it need to be heard stands in the fact that I haven't shared it with my coworkers because I don't know their response. So it's definitely need to be heard because I have to show them myself first, and then present that to them. So the fact that we doing this, I think that it's significant, yes.

Jason :

Thank you. John.

John:

One of the reasons it was so important to me to do the podcast to begin with, and I've shared this in the podcast, is that having experienced the stigma of incarceration and poverty in my life, I just know it's of critical importance that we do what we can as a society to lessen that stigma and help alleviate that. And if I'm open, if I tell my story, then any success, if I'm able to achieve success, I can use that as an example of what everybody is capable of. I'm stumbling with that, but what I really want to share that's important to me in this moment is since I've done that podcast, and actually the day it was released. Incarceration rips communities apart, it rips families apart. And my daughter was born 70 days after I was incarcerated, I was in for 18 years and nine months. And the day that the podcast released, I got a message from her for the very first time.

John:

And we spoke for just a couple little quick texts back and forth but she said she was interested in getting to know me better, and I was able to say, "Hey, a podcast is coming out that I participated in. If you want to know some of my story, you can listen to that." And that's why I was a little bit antsy about it getting released that same day. But it's been really great for me for that reason.

Jason :

Thank you. I wasn't prepared for that.

John:

Me neither.

Jason :

So from the institution, from Santa Fe's perspective, I want some of our panelists to speak about the value to the institution. Why is it important that Santa Fe, that our community know these stories and hear these stories?

Dan:

Since the college is founding, we have been our community's college. Our name has changed several times but our mission remains that we are our community's college. And our community includes individuals and their families with carceral experience. They are part of our community. And so if we are to truly be inclusive and welcoming all members of our community, this has to include all members. And so I think that's where it starts, this is the fabric of our institution, it's our mission. Adding valued lives of our students, enriching our community. Not some of our community, but our community. And so it sometimes takes a while to see who is our community and who are we missing and who are we excluding.

Dan:

And as we learn about those populations, I think it's incumbent upon us as administrators and as faculty to see what can we do to embrace all and to truly serve our community, and to reach our mission and to do what we are founded to do. And so I think that's where it starts. And then beyond that, you actually get to know students. You get to know individuals who are impacted, and it goes from a concept to actually concrete reality. And if we can play some role in helping some of our former students, our current students be successful, then we can see the difference we're making and I think it makes it easier to explain the reasons why we're doing this. And they're right there on the stage today.

Jason :

Thank you.

Bea:

As a college, students come to us. When they come to us, they come to us as individuals. And we try to work with students as individuals rather than as a group. When we don't hear stories like this, we tend to, or we can treat students as average. And if I may use the word of Jonathan Mooney. He said the problem with the world, especially education, is average. When we treat people as average, then we create a system that will put some people out. But when we treat people as individuals and seek to understand what their experiences are, then we build something that everybody can benefit. And that's what community colleges are all about. To meet the needs of the entire community, not just a segment of the community.

Jason :

Thank you. And this is for everyone, but as you listen to others speak about their stories, what things surprised you? What did you learn listening to these stories?

Bill:

I have to say, and forgive me, I've been sick this week, so I don't want to touch a mic. I'm just going to shout. First, I want to say that when we did the podcast with faculty administrators and staff, we got right into all the nitty-gritty and all of our experiences. And what we didn't get to say, and I want to take an opportunity to say, was just how awed and inspired we were by the courage and the honesty that came through all of those podcasts. It was not easy, I think to tell those stories, it was not easy to answer those questions. And we really appreciate so much your willingness to do that and I think it's a powerful example for all of us and for the communities.

Bill:

The thing that surprised me the most, and just told me how out of touch I am with the experience of people who have experienced incarceration and are trying to make their way in the community, is that I got really close to Beth early on after her release. And it wasn't until, I remember driving into that first job dog sitting a few times. And we had a lot of conversations about a lot of things, but I had no idea how much you were struggling economically. I did not know that you can only afford to buy one pair of shoes, have one pair of shoes.

Bill:

And I was not aware enough even to ask the questions of how the community, those of us who knew you, how the community could better support you in that. And so, again, I'm just inspired that you've become so successful and that you've made it through all of those challenges. But I think it's important for people to know that anybody, no matter how determined they are, no matter how ready they are to succeed. Once they've left prison, they really need our support. They need our support in ways that we might not ordinarily imagine. And so we need to ask and we need to be ready to help.

Jason :

Thank you.

Bea:

What surprised me did not happen at the podcast, it happened with my interaction with John. We have policies in the state that intentionally discriminate against people. I never knew that you can be in prison in Florida for many years, but you cannot use that as your residency determination when you are going to college. When John called me, I'm like, that doesn't make sense. But you can't, because that's the way we've written the policy. And I think when we don't hear from people, we don't know what the challenges are. So when someone goes to prison for 20 years and they get out, how do we determine residency?

Bea:

You have to be living somewhere for at least 12 months, you have to have the bills to show, you have to pay all your bills. They're just getting out. They don't have any bill to pay, they don't have driver's license. They cannot vote. So everything that we have in place for us to prove that we qualify for something, we don't have. But mind you, the parents are here, they've been paying taxes. So it just doesn't make sense. So anyway, thank you John, because I learned a lot by that.

Adrienne:

I think participating in this has really made me think a lot about the open door college and what that means. And before, I used to think that the open door college meant that we open our door to anyone who comes to us. And I think that what we really need to do is go out and open doors for people wherever they are in the community. And in the work of our educational opportunity center, under the leadership of Andrea Mender, we are opening those doors.

Adrienne:

But to Dr. Bea's point, the system and the structure make it really challenging. So it's going to take a community and a community college to not only open those doors in the community, but push them and reinforce them and do the work of creating access for all members of our community. And a lot of time, even going in and working within the jail, there's so many structures that keep you from open access, and it's going to take the voices of the full community to make sure that those barriers are known widely. And that's why I think that this podcast talks a lot about what it means to really be an open door institution.

Jason :

Thank you.

Adrian:

I'd like say something. It made me realize, it's an old ancient saying that says time and chance happens to all. So when you listen to our stories, you see that it was time and chance, and we had the mentality and the heart and the passion to take advantage of it. So in my story, I told you how I had given up after getting out because of the limited opportunities because the occupational licensures, the state of Florida, they don't like to license felons for professional work. So what I wanted to do, I was like, okay, it's no reason for me to go to school because anything that's worth it, it requires a license and I can't have it. So I had given up. I had just, whatever, I'm going to do something else, try to establish myself to start a family. So this guy named Prince Ulami, he inspired me to go back to college off of pure faith. Black and white says I can't do it, but I believe internally that I can do it, that's what I mean by faith.

Adrian:

So with that being said, I'm here before you talking today, and my story mimics John's and Beth's, it was just time and chance. So what we want to do is we want to increase that time and chance, the opportunity for those with the same like passions to be able to succeed and not have to go off faith like I'm doing. The very career that I'm seeking at this moment, black and white tells me I can't do it, but I'm still doing it. It was a guy yesterday on stage, the same profession as me, Tedrick Moore, he was denied twice before. I mean, he was denied once and went back to prison, the radiography program. He was denied after completing it because the state wouldn't license him to be able to practice. And he went back to prison then he got back out with faith again, doing it, not knowing that he could even do it, and somehow he got through.

Adrian:

So I just imagine that y'all in the crowd, y'all don't want that, right? So the state of Florida, they just passed a bill last year where Pell Grants are allowed for those who have two years and less for vocational skills like plumbing and electrical, which don't require a high school diploma here at Santa Fe to enter. So it's a perfect time for Santa Fe to take advantage of that time and chance so that they can give people a great opportunity to succeed. So, yeah.

Jason :

Thank you. So in terms of misconceptions, what do you think are some of the most widely held misconceptions about students with carceral experience?

John:

I have the microphone.

Jason :

That was very, very subtly done, Dr. Bea.

John:

I would say that, I don't know. I don't feel as though I've been subject to many misconceptions in my experience and in college since I've been released. I can't really speak to that. However, I will also say that I have been very cautious in not exposing myself to a lot of opportunity for that, I've really focused on online classes. I do love a classroom discussion. However, while I was incarcerated, I was amazingly fortunate to have access to a few opportunities for higher education while I was there. So I was able to get the majority of the classes that are focused on communication and discussion done while I was still inside. Since I've been out, it's really just been math and coding and stuff like that.

Beth:

I don't really know about the perception of me, but I know that what I thought as a college student. Well, let me back up. What I thought as an incarcerated person getting out is I thought there'd be a lot more opportunity than there was. People talk in prison and I don't know where these ideas come from, but people say, "Oh yeah, when you get out, there's going to be scholarships for people that have been to prison. There will be this opportunity for people that have been to prison. There's going to be this grant or this," but I couldn't find any of those. And like Bill mentioned, I'm not trying to say my situation was harder than anyone else's, but I really struggled with my basic needs.

Beth:

I live here in Florida but all of my family is up north, so I was here alone. And I have friends now and I probably should have said something. We struggled with groceries, with rent, with electricity, and I thought when I got out, things would be a little bit easier because I thought that having gotten out of prison, there would be these programs and opportunities, but I just couldn't find any. And so it was really hard and I think that, like Roselyn said it and everyone else has said, we need the educational opportunities but we also just need basic support.

Beth:

I was lucky to find somewhere to live, but after I lived in that first place, trying to find a next place, there's so many places here in Gainesville that if you've had a felony within the last eight years, you can't live there. There's so many places that if you've had a felony within the last eight years, you can't work there. And even past that, I wanted children and I went to the foster care program and I finished their course, they did my home study. And the whole time they promised me, "Oh, it's going to work out. We're totally going to approve you." I had a bedroom set up, and they denied me at the end because I'm a felon. Every door is closed, and it just makes things hard. I thought that there would be more opportunities and there really wasn't.

Ryan:

Jessica. Piggybacking on what she was saying, I want y'all to think about something. Gainesville, Nashville County. If you take a 50-mile radius, there's about 11 correctional institutions within 50 miles of Gainesville. That means our community, they are our community. Those folks come back to gang... I'm born and raised here, I can tell you countless stories of formerly incarcerated folks that have hit those walls because of those things she talks about. And that is our community. There are so many people that come from the criminal justice system that come to our community, yet they hit these walls and you wonder why the recidivism rate is there. Well, that's because we put these obstacles that make it so hard for them back into society. So they revert back to, a lot of times people do what they know best, unfortunately.

Ryan:

So that's why I think Santa Fe, we didn't have to do our due diligence to give them those doors, like Adrian said, open those doors that didn't even know that the barriers were there. But now that we know it, we need to kick those doors down. And I know people look at me and go, "Well, you're a police captain." Yeah, I've been a police captain, I've been a cop for 25 years. So I've seen these things, but I've also seen what they can do when we give them those opportunities. We have countless former students that came here through the criminal justice system, yet they strived and they did excellent when we give them the helping hand.

Ryan:

They don't need us to say, "Oh, you did that when you were 18," so you can hold it against him when he's 37. Well, that's not the same person. And we need to realize that, and that's one thing that we need to help educate our society, our community that hey, just because you made that one mistake doesn't mean you can never change, you can never grow. And that's what we need to do. We need to make sure that we are very welcoming to those individuals because they are here, they are living in our community. And what can we do to help them succeed? Well, I won't be on my soapbox forever.

John:

I actually did come up with something.

Jason :

Oh, please.

Ryan:

He's back. You're a good man.

John:

Thank you.

Ryan:

You're doing good.

John:

I'm trying.

Ryan:

You're doing good.

John:

One thing that I definitely want to bring from my experience, that I realized while I was still inside. I did a lot of work while I was inside tutoring for people who were working on their GEDs. I dropped out when I was in ninth grade and I ended up getting my GED just before I went to prison. And towards the middle to the end of my sentence, I really started working with other incarcerated people. And I had a bad experience with the education system, dropped out. And that was pretty much the experience with everybody that I worked with, is we had been really burned and just churned through a system, the education system, and it hurt in a lot of ways. But those guys that were there that I was working with, they were back, and it was a struggle, but it was a struggle that they had returned to.

John:

And I think that that's something that is really critical for educators to realize and for those who are going back through the experience again, is that this hurt the first time through. I'm back, for now. Hopefully it goes well. But this is a real risk, a real chance I'm taking with, not just my entire future, but with my self-image. Am I suitable for an education? It's a lot of struggles.

Jason :

Thank you. So I'd like to take some time to let some of our audience members ask some questions. But before I take a mic out into the audience, do you have any questions for one another?

Adrienne:

I have a follow-up question to what you just were discussing. How do we as an institution or representatives of a higher education institution, rebuild that confidence that's been shattered? What can we do?

John:

I know that for me, when I was working as an educator, just boots on the ground, it was when somebody was really getting frustrated with material, when they were really struggling, not getting frustrated as well, but meeting them in that place of, okay, we're here together. I struggled with this too. But this is worth it, this struggle. It does mean something. And not only that, but it can be overcome. And we're here with you to help you through that.

Jason :

Thank you.

Adrian:

Y'all begging me to say something?

John:

Of course.

Adrian:

Okay. Okay. So understanding that, I think it's a misconception. I'ma merge the two. I think it's a misconception and how could we help? Well, a lot of times when people revert to anti-social behaviors, it's not because they wanted to, meaning that not this just because they're like this. I think it's in the back of people minds subconsciously that we are all like the joker or the Batman. People who commit anti-social behaviors, these people are just doing bad just to because they want to. Well, you have to realize, just using my personal story, I grew up in a rough place. And as a child, I remember having to fight in order to hold my dignity. As a very young child, elementary school to be exact. I'm talking about first, second grade. The first time I committed a violent offense which I went to prison for, is my mother always told me the story, I was in kindergarten.

Adrian:

This kid was just bothering with me. He just kept messing with me. And I ended up punching the kid and breaking the kid nose's in kindergarten school. I meant kindergarten grade. So my mother knew every time I committed a violent act, that somebody had done something to my son. So, coming from a rough place and having been put in a remedial class, like I said yesterday. Because of these anti-social behaviors, it didn't put me in a great position to even seek higher education. Then my mother, she didn't graduate high school. My grandmother couldn't read. So it wasn't any immediate resource available. I remember when I was about 19 or 20 years old, I remember sitting on a curb in what you call a section eight neighborhood. I was staying with my sister trying to figure out, because football didn't work out.

Adrian:

So just trying to figure out what's my next step because I knew that what they call the streets wasn't the answer. But I remember sitting on the curve, and I tried a hundred jobs and none of them even called me back. Marilyn alluded to it, maybe because I had dreads. Maybe because of my speech, I don't know. But I tried. I tried everywhere, Subway. They had Blockbuster back then, I remember going to Blockbuster and filling out the application. I tried everywhere, I was humble. And I remember sitting on the curb and I said to myself, because I always believed in God. And I said, God, if it got to be like this, you might as well take me now. I'd rather not live than to have to sell drugs because that's what I believe was the next step. And I knew what that led to as a 19 or 20 year old. Sitting on the curb, total distress, knowing that what am I going to do besides sell drugs.

Adrian:

So I kind of felt forced, even though opportunities was out there, I couldn't see it. So I sold my only car that I had to work for at a very hard job. I sold my car and I went to Jacksonville, which is about a hour away because they had good prices on drugs. And I brought them back to Gainesville and sold drugs. And that ultimately led to the violent offense, because somebody took something and I retaliated. Y'all see it on a movie, you see it on the TV shows. That's a reality. So the position I was placed in was not very good. And I was looking for a way out.

Adrian:

So I think that one of the biggest misconceptions in what could we do, we could employ people like me or Beth that understands the situation and can address it on a professional level, to be able to meet people as individuals and to see where they're coming from. Because a lot of us know the bad apples. Y'all tell, but I think me, Beth, and John, sorry. We can tell. So I think that's not the answer, but I think that's two steps that we can move forward into.

Jason :

Thank you. I'm going to take a mic and people are going to make me run around.

Ryan:

Oh, Anne's going to run this time.

Jason :

Thank you, Anne. She wore tennis shoes as well, that's good.

Ryan:

She wears sneakers, there you go.

Anne:

I should have worn sneakers so I fit in. So first, I want to thank you guys so much for sharing your stories. I feel it's such a special thing to hear that as we all share this space together. Something that really stuck with me is hearing how you guys didn't feel seen, and that broke my heart. So I guess I have a two-part question. I've had the privilege of meeting you many times and I know Prince, and I can see your worth and your value here on campus and in the world. And I'm so grateful to have known you and to have heard your story.

Anne:

So again, it's a two part question. One, how can students support you here on campus? What can students do to make you feel seen and heard and included in the conversation, and here on campus? And then, what can faculty do to advocate on your behalf? You mentioned having difficulties because you can't use your Department of Corrections as your residency. So what can faculty do to advocate for you to get you jobs or scholarships? So that would be my question, it's that two part. What can students do specifically? And then, what can faculty do?

Jason :

Amy.

Adrian:

No, I don't mind.

Jason :

Go for it.

Adrian:

Okay. Again. The resource program, like Project Rebound. A lot of times, if you are beaten on... Picture this, medieval times. You're trying to knock down the door of a kingdom. What do you use? They usually, as you see it in the movies, they get a big log and about a thousand people put their hands to that same log and hit it. If we beat the door without this log, everybody beating it, is not going to move or budge. So this resource program is that log where people can put their hands to and beat down the door. So students will be able to participate in this resource center, slash program. And the school, being a state institution with a lot of resources, I like to say unlimited. Because it is no limits to what people will want to do in our community and how effective that can be. But anyway, I think the resource center is a way for everybody to be involved and to knock down that the door.

Jason :

I feel like now we've got an image for a logo. That's incredible. Yeah, I love it. Thank you.

Speaker 15:

My question was for the formerly incarcerated people, did you guys find after or in your experience in Santa Fe? I know that mental health, especially after you've been institutionalized, is a big barrier. You've seen and gone through a lot. Did you find that Santa Fe or any other of the institutions of higher education you went to had enough support for you for mental health, specifically geared toward formerly incarcerated people? Because I know they have free therapists and such, but they might not have the experience of dealing with that. So I just wanted to get your guys' experience on that.

John:

I've been out about two... Wow, about two years. Today is my two-year release anniversary. Amazing. That being said, my struggle with mental health is something that is continuously evolving. When I came to Santa Fe, I enrolled with, my goodness. I submitted an application for admission within days of my release, and I was still caught up in the carceral experience. To a large part, I still am. And so the mental health services that are available here at Santa Fe, I have no idea what they look like, I'm going to be honest with you, because I didn't even think that mental health would be a continual struggle for me.

John:

I'm trying to eat, I'm trying to just make it through each day and find my place in society. So I don't know the answer to that question. And as a formerly incarcerated person, I think that the best answer I can give you is I don't know. I don't know what support services could have been available to me and I don't know what services are available to me now. And what I could potentially need is still, I don't know.

Ryan:

Dan, you can be speak to some of the programs we have, helping folks.

Bea:

But the question is, is this sufficient?

Ryan:

But given John, what we actually have here, like I say, he doesn't know.

Dan:

I appreciate the question, obviously it's not geared to me. And in responding to John's comments, I'll attempt to explain a little bit what the college has. So Santa Fe College does have a counseling center. We're one of four state colleges in Florida that have licensed mental health counselors that are here to serve students in person or remotely at no charge to the student. And they work with students with a variety of mental health challenges. Everything from anxiety to anxiety and depression, suicide ideology, relationships and family issues and challenges. It's a wide range. They are not set up to do long-term talk therapy. It's crisis intervention, it's identifying a current issue and helping the student come up with a plan for success that may incur referring them out to community resources if the need is greater than our capacity.

Dan:

It is a national issue of dealing with mental health issues and mental health challenges that college students of all ages have. And certainly, those coming out of prison are likely to have those issues just like everyone else is. And so, the challenge is understanding the specific issues that this population has, and I do believe that our licensed mental health counselors, our staff in the counseling center, some of them come to Santa Fe with experience working in prisons. And so, they have that specific experience. Others have done internships there, others have just studied that. But there's an opportunity for them to work with students.

Dan:

And that is there, whether that information is made available right up front or if your issues about basic needs, food, shelter, that perhaps was top priority above mental health although the reality is what's going on in our brains and our bodies impacts everything we do. And so, finding a way to make sure that our students coming into the college are aware of the resources we have to help them be successful, of all of those needs, is important.

Bea:

In addition to that, the college has a committee. Actually, Dr. Rodkin is the chair of the committee, the disciplinary review panel, that meet with students. Well, it has evolved. But it was actually through that experience that John and I met, through that meeting. So when we meet with students who have committed some serious crimes and now they're coming back, when the committee meets with them, the goal is not to put up a barrier to say they don't belong here. The goal is for the different committee members to come together and say what could possibly be the resource that we have on campus that can help them? Each of us on the committee will actually reach out to those because we don't want somebody who is coming in to have so many people reaching out to them and then they become overwhelmed at once. There are instances where a student, as an example, a student will say, "I've had issues in the past because I did not. And I think maybe that was the reason why I was tagged to work with John. I did not finish school. I dropped out of school."

Bea:

So we look at it. Could that be because of undiagnosed learning disabilities? Could that be because of any type of anything? Whatever. Then we connect someone within that committee to reach out to them, to talk with them, to have a better understanding of what they need. And then, that person becomes the navigator for them. Not that the person is going to take them everywhere, but can connect them directly to where they need to go. So if we realize that someone, there seems to be an issue with mental health, then we have somebody from the counseling center on that panel. And that person then becomes the contact individual with them. And again, just like Dr. Rodkin said, there are times when we look at the hierarchy of needs.

Bea:

If you are hungry, all you want to do is just eat right now. You are not thinking of the next level. Even though someone is reaching out to you, that's not really what you are thinking about. Because if I knew that there was an issue with mental health with John, I probably would have, but all he wanted to do was, I just need to get my residency. And that was all we worked on. And as soon as we finished, I thought everything was fine, because he sent email to me and he said, "Great, thank you. I'm here." And I'm like, "Wonderful. If you have questions, reach out to me." And I'm like, okay, then I go to the next person. So, anyway. But that's a great question

Beth:

Thank you. So echoing what I've said earlier, I didn't realize just like John didn't, I didn't realize that mental health counseling was available. And I didn't realize that a lot of the services that the college offered was available. I've been out 10 years now, so when I went to the disciplinary review board, no one reached out to me like that. And I think that's great, and maybe that would've helped. But when I got here, I got my schedule, I went to those specific classrooms, and then I went home and tried to work. I tried to fill every single second with either homework or work. It didn't even occur to me that there would be anything else in a college, but more classrooms. I thought all of these buildings were just filled with classrooms. I knew there was a library, but other than that, it didn't occur to me that there might be counseling. It didn't occur to me that there would be a nurse. I saw there was health services.

Beth:

It didn't occur to me that there would be a food pantry. And after I had been going for a while, I learned about these things. But in the very beginning when I was at my most desperate, I had no idea. I'd never been to college, so I didn't know what was in a college other than classrooms. I didn't know to ask about services, I didn't know to look for services. I just didn't know, I had zero experience. And if you don't know to ask, you just don't know. And if people, like you said, if you don't know that they need, you don't know to offer. So I think that when you're accepting students that have formerly been incarcerated, you have to keep in the back of your mind that these people possibly know nothing on what is a possibility.

Beth:

And another thing I wanted to touch on a question ago too is not only do they know nothing, but a lot of us don't really 100% believe that we deserve it. We don't know that we are the type of person that can be successful. We don't know that we lived this certain lifestyle and we spent all this time in prison and we think, well, that is the type of person I am and that is the path I'm on. And that stuff, I missed the boat. I miss the boat for a happy life, I missed the boat for a secure life. So something you can do too is remind them like, hey. Put in the work and you're going to get there because you deserve it. You deserve it and you're capable, and it is possible. A lot of us think, oh, well. I've got a felony now and my opportunities are gone. But that's not always the case. Try. Try and know that we believe in you and know that we've got these services, and you can succeed.

Jason :

Thank you.

Speaker 15:

Down here, Mike. I think, just like Captain Woods, I'm a lifelong Gainesville resident and am teaching here for 11 years.

Bea:

Some people may have-

Tommy :

I apologize. Hey. I'm very proud of this community and I'm very proud of this college, but I think that we have a huge moral and ethical responsibility in this realm. We are the community's college but we also have an institute of public safety where we educate most of the officers who enter into the police forces and Department of Corrections, or some. And so, I think that we need to run and not walk towards these goals. And I'm really glad that we're here and having this conversation, but I really want to see a lot more in this.

Jason :

So in terms of outcomes, this is a great point. In your minds, what would be the ideal outcome of these conversations and of this work that we've started?

Bill:

Battering ram.

Jason :

Battering ram.

Bill:

A battering ram that everybody can grab onto.

Beth:

I like that.

Tommy :

Project Rebound Gainesville. How about that?

Beth:

I support that.

Adrian:

I should say something again, please. I'm so shy. I remember being incarcerated, obviously. And it's this person, he stays in Melbourne. And we met while I was incarcerated. And we used to walk the track and talk every day. He had a mind that was just out there. He'll be in Pluto this day and the next day he's on earth. So I felt a moral responsibility since I felt myself grounded to gravity to talk to him and communicate with him on a daily basis, even if he's taking me through an hour long conversation that I want to get out of. So recently, this guy forsaken my counsel. Even to this day, he's put himself in a crazy situation. But I remember him telling me when we was locked up together in Gainesville work camp, where they sent us to work every day. And I'm glad that the city of Gainesville eliminated that.

Adrian:

He wanted to get a GED, and he used to tell me, "Man, you speak well." I'm like, "I'm in prison with you." "You speak well, I want to be able to speak with doctors and lawyers." This was his desire. And also, he had a past like me in school where they put him on drugs and said that he had ADHD. They do a lot of the kids like that that are really like that. So he believes, even though I can see that, not. He believes it though because that's the thing that was placed and forced upon him when he was small. So his desires still are great. But he called me about two months ago because he have two kids now and he decided to have a child with not a great mother. So he's a single parent. So he has two kids and he was calling me, telling me, "Man, I have to give them up to the state, because I can't take care of them. I have to give him up."

Adrian:

And I pleaded with him on a daily basis, "Hey, listen. Who is the best option for your kids? Do you have to fight?" And I told them that the game is isn't over. It's the third quarter. Yeah, you're down by 14 points, but the game is not over. You have to keep going, at least lose. Don't be afraid of losing, try to win. So I say all to say this, that the resource wasn't there for him at Gainesville work camp. So he hasn't gotten his GED yet still and he's been released for about six or seven years.

Adrian:

And his desires when I talk to him, but right now with the two kids, and yes, he made a lot of bad decisions, but what's that resource? I couldn't be there with him in Melbourne. So life happens. And right now, he's too much in a hole for him to even think right now, I need a GED, or I can still do this. So when I look at people like that, knowing that he would've took advantage of that opportunity. And then I look at Santa Fe. Knowing that we could project rebound Gainesville and have that resource there for them at the right time, in the right moment, it would've saved him from these situations and being able to provide, because right now still to today, he's a single parent. He's doing a temporary job with TurboTax, not knowing what he's going to do after that.

Adrian:

I had to tell him about the food stamp program. I had to tell him, listen, I don't really know about these things. I don't have kids, but I've heard about them. So I'm just saying, hey. Try this and try that. So I can talk a long time about it but I think my point has been made that Chris is his name. I wish the resource could have been there for Chris. And maybe it's not too late, maybe it is. But my hope is to be able to affect people like him, and that that'll be the outcome for me. I think Marilyn had her hand up.

Jason :

Marilyn.

Marilyn :

Thank you. I just have a quick question. Thanks everyone for sharing it, this has really been enlightening for me and I'm just incredibly inspired by what you want to do here. And hopefully we can get some things done. So hearing about this disciplinary review process, it's interesting. I had no idea that if you had an experience with the criminal legal system, that you had to go through a disciplinary review board to go get admissions. Is that correct?

Bill:

Well, no longer admission, but you do have to go through it at this point in order to be able to enroll.

Marilyn :

To enroll, okay.

Bill:

There's been a major change in the last couple of years, Dan can talk about that.

Marilyn :

Okay. So one second.

Bill:

Sure.

Marilyn :

So enroll. Okay. You have to go through the process. So could you possibly hire or connect those who are going through the disciplinary process before they enroll with someone from the Justice Club or Professor Maple or Professor Tebow, to ask all of the questions that we now know need to be asked, and then some, to help a student realize what it is that they may need before they actually get involved in coursework? So, like an intake process. Could we develop something like that for students facing this challenge?

Dan:

Yes.

Marilyn :

Oh, okay. Great. Follow up. Can we do that next week?

Dan:

Yes.

Marilyn :

Awesome.

Dan:

So I just want to take just a moment and share with the audience a little bit about the intake, the onboarding process if you will, for students who are involved in our current version of our disciplinary review panel. Before, gosh, 2021 maybe, our question on the application was very broad. Have you ever been found guilty or had adjudication withheld of any crime other than traffic ticket, speeding? And anyone who answered yes, their admission to the college was paused until they're reviewed administratively by the college. The office of the registrar did an initial review, and if they were relatively minor issues, they would be approved without even coming to the committee. If there were anything else, the committee would review the paperwork. And we would interview many, and we would approve many. 3% of all people we ever wanted to interview were denied. A very, very small population.

Dan:

But we found in doing some research that a large number of students or prospective students, applicants that we wanted to interview didn't show up for the interview. And so they weren't coming to college. By having this process in place, even though we were denying very few students, there was a group that wasn't even coming here. And so we said, why are we requiring everyone to come through us? Why are we making everyone answer yes to this question? What are we really worried about? And so what we decided was what we really cared about was violent offenses, sexual offenses and offenses involving a firearm or other weapon. Those are the things we really care about. Those are the students we want to talk to. The person who was selling drugs, the person who had a DUI, the person who had a burglary, come on in. Don't even answer yes. Come on in.

Dan:

And so that change in our process, and we admitted everyone immediately. So even if we were going to interview them, they were still admitted to the college. They could work through the other processes that led from admission to enrollment so that they weren't having to wait to be approved to see an advisor, to do their financial aid, to do orientation, all those other processes that are so important. So we were not stopping them from getting started, we were just a final step. So we did a lot of things we think improved our process. This resulted in a significant decline in the number of students who answer yes to the application. The speed bump that used to be there, or the wall that used to be there is non-existent for most students. For those that do, and we do meet with them, it's only the most serious issues. And for that population, we are currently connecting with some resources, but I think involving the Justice Club as one of those resources is a wonderful idea and I'm so glad you brought it up. Thank you.

Jason :

It's really hard to stop these conversations. We just want to keep going. We are going to move on to some... I want to thank all of our panelists for their time and their candor. I want to thank our panelists and symposium guests for such a great conversation. Funding for this program was provided through a grant from the Florida Humanities with funds from the National Endowment for the Humanities. Any views, findings, conclusions or recommendations expressed in this program do not necessarily represent those of the Florida Humanities or the National Endowment for the Humanities. This episode was produced by Anne Tebow and Lex Shelton. Thank you for listening.